Please help: New Dirt Tank something growing on top of substrate

[alexbn024]

Hello all,

I recently decided to try setting up a dirt tank. It seemed like an interesting idea and I was able to get a good deal on a 20g aquarium with fluval 204. For the substrate I used Miracle Gro Organic potting soil, about 1-1.5in and I used a layer of Seachem gravel on top of it. The overall height is from 1.5-2.5 in. Light is 1x18" T8 (Sun Glo) + 6xCREE XP-G R5 Cool White at 1A, 2in apart. Tank is a standard 24x14x12.

After my plants arrived, (several Echinodirus species, dwarf anubis, HC etc) I planted everything flooded tank (last Sunday) and did a 100% water change next day (no live stock). I was planning to go medium maintenance with this tank, CO2 injection, Seachem Trace+Flourish to start.

After 1st water change I noticed some foreign gray-ish hairy coat on the gravel, but it was small so I dismissed it as a dirt deposit related to the initial start. Next I did 100% water change this Tuesday, and next morning, I see that gray-ish hairy stuff in several new spots, mostly around HC. This makes me really worried about plants and whole set up and I am not sure what to do next

Can anybody help identifying what I've got and maybe give some advise on how to get rid of it, if needed (maybe its a good thing ).

Thanks in advance


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[Biollante]

Hi,

It is red algae, probably Audouinella, we usually associate this bunch with wonky CO₂ and/or circulation, with an honorable mention to poor water conditions. Of course any talk of CO₂ necessarily calls lighting into question and I am unfamiliar with the lighting you mentioned.

I am guessing the potting soil you are referring to is Miracle-Gro® Organic Choice® Potting Mix and I suspect the “organic” nature of the poultry litter may be part of the problem; until this “mineralizes,” I suspect it may be pumping out excess organic material.

This is a nasty little alga; best bet is manual removal and bathing the affected plants in 20-ppm KMnO₂ solution for up to 2-hours.

I would also add lots of fast growing plants for the time being.

Do all the obvious stuff.

Biollante

[alexbn024]

Hi Biollante,

Thank you very much for the information!!! I am at the beginning of the learning curve and what happened was way beyond my current knowledge. I would like to clarify on some points, if I may.

1) What would be a good indication of sufficient water circulation? I can visually see that there is a flow around most of the affected areas. After your post I set my Fluval 204 to its max, but I also have few maxijet powerheads, left from my saltwater tank, so i can add one of those to help with water circulation. I am not sure if the diatom in saltwater has a similar nature to Audouinella that you mentioned, but 3 powerheads allowed me to get rid of it completely in a saltwater tank. I guess, in a freshwater planted, I can't go to such extreme. I removed as much as I can manually with cotton swab.

2) Regarding CO2. Only today I got a brass splitter so now I can have CO2 injection on continuous basis, is there a rue of thumb for a new dirt tank on how much CO2 to inject during initial stage?

3) You were right about Miracle-Gro, that is the one I am using. Did you have any experience regarding how long does it take for it to get miniralized? From Dianne's book it seems like two days was enough to let fish there, bu my ammonia, even after 100% water change is still at 1-2 ppm, *shrug*

4) Would KMnO2 be a ruby crystals, like fine sugar? I might have that one at home. For now, it seems like only HC was affected, can I drain the water and put some cotton compress of aqueous solution of KMnO2 over affected areas(they are about 1in in diameter at most, for now)? On a second thought, the one I have is probably KMnO4, will it work?

5) And the last question, what would be good fast growing plants candidates? I don't have much choice on the island: Hornwort, Cabomba, Ludvigia and Bacopa monnieri. Willl those work? I also gonna replace my light with 2x24W 6700K T5HO (24" Coralife fixture)

I hope I did not overload you with my questions . Thanks again!

[Biollante]

Hi,

Question 1) post #3.
I wish there were an easy answer to the circulation question.

We tend associate circulation with speed/volume, though important, the real issue is that the flow, the movement brings nutrients and so forth in and around the plants while sweeping waste products away while facilitating gas exchange.

The tough part is sometimes all the extra water movement can be counterproductive, creating “dead spots,” areas where debris is dumped.

The “gyre” we see in many reef tanks can cause our plants some real problems.

Since we also depend on Brownian motion, electrostatic interactions, van der Waals Forces, Wick’s Laws, and Newtonian mechanics (water and most of our solutions are after all Newtonian liquids) the best answer comes from our plants and critters.

The truth is I have successful tanks that run from no mechanical assistance to better than 35 times turnover per hour. So flow by itself would not seem to be "the" answer.

The best I can say is look for places where debris piles up, watch for a little movement. Watch food, fertz and other things you dump in the tank. Watch where the schooling (or shoaling) fish tend to hang out, especially when they think food may be about.

Should you use Potassium permanganate (PP) artfully dropping PP solution at va rious points can give a nice indication of flow. (Do not try this with food coloring as some of it; red in particular can be harmful to plants. “They” do make various buoyancy dyes for tracking flow.)

A drop or two of PP into a glass jar or flask water can be a nice demonstration of Newtonian mechanics, Brownian movement and Fick’s first law all in one neat little package. Note that it requires no circulation to achieve perfect dispersion/diffusion that in itself should give pause.

Personally, I have always favored uphill, downhill flow. Pick one end of the tank for influent and the other for effluent. In the larger systems, I impart quarter twist.

My observation of low flow, no flow systems is causing me to think Dutchy has the “correct” flow pattern. Dutchy’s is a back to front roll, eventually I will figure out how to explain it and claim it was my discovery and everyone will think I am brilliant ‘cause I am so dad-gummed good looking.

Biollante

[Biollante]

Hi,

Question 2) post #3.
I do not know of any rule of thumb regarding dirt tanks as opposed to any other where CO₂ is concerned.

Consistency is, in my ever-humble-potted-plant opinion, more important than total CO₂, actual CO₂ demand is driven principally by light, having said that if you have a pressurized system you may as well aim for a minimum of 30-ppm.

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Question 3) post #3.
I do not have direct experience with that particular product, but I would assume 2-weeks or so. As a rule I soak just about everything I use for several weeks, I boil it, or lay it in the sun (something we have in abundance here) for a few weeks (months).

1 or 2-ppm ammonia is solid evidence of something rotting.

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Question 4) post #3.
I am not sure I would characterize PP as “fine” sugar-like crystals, but yeah that sounds like PP, KMnO₄.
KMnO₂, would be Potassium manganite a brown colored anion of PP, this would likely be an intermediate step in the redox of PP.

I suppose you could try the cotton soaked PP trick, I would start with a 20-ppm solution, leave it on the plants for 15-minutes or so. Then flood again, though I think a water column treatment might be a better idea.

Biollante

[alexbn024]

Hi Biollante,

Thank you very much for taking time and answering my questions. I really appreciate it. I implemented most of your suggestions, and it seems like algae infestation is not accelerating at the rate it used to. I also changing about 80% of water every other day. I will keep monitoring the surface spread and continue manual removal of some established colonies until Sunday and then decide about PP. Most likely I will do PP treatment for the sake of completeness

Your discussion about water flow was very interesting. I , myself, was originally thinking about increasing level of turbulence by creating counter-rotating eddies in opposite corners of the tank. But with all plants I have there and a big piece of driftwood, it resulted in several stagnation points, and regions of high shear stress might be as useful for plants is they are for mixing. Yesterday i decided to remove additional turbine and redirect fluval outflow along the long wall, so characteristic length is increased. That seem to add to the list of positive outcomes from the steps you outlined, and which I implemented. I am kind of excited about this algae bloom as it helped me to get better understanding about what can go wrong , and get some hands-on experience in treating the consequences Looking forward to completely get rid of it

[alexbn024]

Hi Biollante,

This morning I discovered that in addition to red algae I got two additional uninvited guests. A biofilm covered whole surface, I removed it with paper towel, placed over it. In addition to that, something that looks like a fungi start to spread at one place... It looks like a colony of white dots. Sadly, red algae returned in full strength today, so, I am back to the stage I used to be at and will need to get 20ppm solution of PP ready. While looking at all this, I can't help to think about at which point one decides that the battle is lost and a fresh start is needed. Can you share any thoughts regarding this issues?

Thank you in advance!

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[Biollante]

Hi,

I think it is a little early for talk of throwing in the towel, unless you have other tanks to use the plants.


I think you made a small error in setting up your tank, your substrate, nothing that cannot be overcome.



With no critters in the tank, your options are wide open.



More later…


Biollante

[alexbn024]

I thought It would be useful to post an update. I had my weekly routine today for my, so far the only successful 5G, and major cleaning of my "learning to make it right" 20G. 50% water change in the first case and about 100% water change in the second one. Here some data: Ph 6.4, Amm: 0.5ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 0ppm

Just to give you an idea how much of stuff had grown during last four days, here are couple of pictures:

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It is apparently not possible to find a scale with 1E-03 g resolution in a small town on the island, the best one I saw was 0.1g... Looks like I have to visit chemistry department to make 20ppm PP. Meanwhile, I though I will outline my major mistakes and goals, so it will help to make this thread a bit more organized:

What was done wrong (I think)
1) organic soil was not prepared for "submergin phase" properly. One should of either (i) "dry-start it" for several weeks, (ii) boil it for some time (I wander for how long), (iii) leave it under sun for some time (if there is good amount available)
2) CO2 should be in constant supply from the very start, 30ppm or so I guess?
3) To help absorb extra nutrients, that are naturally present in the organic soil, fast growing plants should be introduced along with everything else.
4) Water flow in the tank should be neither too fast nor too slow. (more laminar?)
5) Light quality should be "understandable"

Goals:

1) Get nutrient transport under control (presumably once plants establish themselves, and once soil gets mineralized)
2) Mechanically remove algae until its spread starts to decrease.


While educating myself with all different types of algae, I found an old thread about cleaning up Rhizoclonium. The approach was to do a 3-4 days blackout, stop CO2 and instead does Excel, on daily basis, with large water changes (50-70%). I wander if this strategy can be implemented in my case.

Finally, during my routine cleaning today, with an airline tubing... I was able to remove most of the algae. I wander how fast will it grow back.

[alexbn024]

Small update. Mechanical removal does not seem to do much to affected areas. The "white dot colony" start to appear is several new places, and I still have no idea what that is and how to get rid of it. I decided to follow a method I found online for cleaning up Rhizoclonium. I will do a black out for 3 days, add Excel daily at 2 cupfuls, turn off CO2 and do two water changes. Hopefully that will help.