Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 62

Thread: Micro Fertilizer DIY Formula

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Surprise, AZ
    Posts
    3,210

    Smile About It For Now

    Hi,

    I am at a bit of an impasse;
    I really cannot find a reasonable way of efficiently chelating individual metals with “household” items.

    So far the recipes seem to be working well, they really are not for “dry dosing,” but work well mixed in a slightly acidic solution (<pH 5), either as a stock solution or as the “dry dose” amount and mixing (distilled water is best) it prior to dosing.
    • A little vinegar (acetic acid), lemon juice, Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) anything to pull the pH down to 5 or so.


    Also, nothing really beats ball-milling (same as you use for making gunpowder) for mixing the recipes.


    Biollante
    The first sign we don't know what we are doing is an obsession with numbers. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

    Disclaimer: I am not trying to make you mad, it is just what I am, an evil plant monster, 'nuf said.

    • I believe the information I am giving is sound, I am not a veterinarian, professional chemist or particularly bright and certainly not a "Guru.".
    • I assume you are of legal age, competent and it is legal for you to acquire, possess and use any materials or perform any action in your in your jurisdiction.
    • When in doubt "don't."

  2. I live in Vietnam. I cannot buy CSM+B here, so this thread is very useful. Can I substitute Fe2O3 for Fe2O3.3H2O ? Thank you, Biollante.

    Trung,

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Surprise, AZ
    Posts
    3,210

    Smile Happy 22/7 Day

    Hi,

    Yes, I think everywhere I used Iron (III) oxide it was the trihydrate.

    These are the three that used Fe2O3●3 H2O, Iron (III) oxide tri-hydrate, Rust for the iron.
    Generic form,
    EDTA, Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid-------------------------------------------599-grams
    MgSO4●7H2O, Magnesium sulfate hepta-hydrate, Epsom salt, ------------152-grams
    Fe2O3●3 H2O, Iron (III) oxide tri-hydrate, Rust-----------------------------------132-grams
    MnSO4●5 H2O, Manganese sulfate penta-hydrate ----------------------------- 89-grams
    ZnSO4●7 H2O, Zinc sulfate hepta-hydrate----------------------------------------- 18-grams
    H3BO3, Boric acid-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5-grams
    CuSO4●5H2O, Copper sulfate penta-hydrate (blue)------------------------------ 4-grams
    H2MoO4, Molybdic acid or dihydroxidodioxidomolybdenum------------------ 1-gram

    Generic form w/ MnSO4● H2O ,
    EDTA, Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid-------------------------------------------626-grams
    MgSO4●7H2O, Magnesium sulfate hepta-hydrate, Epsom salt, ------------152-grams
    Fe2O3●3 H2O, Iron (III) oxide tri-hydrate, Rust3----------------------------------132-grams
    MnSO4● H2O, Manganese (II) sulfate monohydrate --------------------------- 62-grams
    ZnSO4●7 H2O, Zinc sulfate hepta-hydrate----------------------------------------- 18-grams
    H3BO3, Boric acid-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5-grams
    CuSO4●5H2O, Copper sulfate penta-hydrate (blue4)------------------------------ 4-grams
    H2MoO4, Molybdic acid or dihydroxidodioxidomolybdenum------------------- 1-gram

    Generic form w/ Mn (II) SO4● H2O, ZnO, Na2B8O13 ● 4H2O
    EDTA, Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid-------------------------------------------634-grams
    MgSO4●7H2O, Magnesium sulfate hepta-hydrate, Epsom salt, ------------152-grams
    Fe2O3●3 H2O, Iron (III) oxide tri-hydrate, Rust3----------------------------------132-grams
    MnSO4● H2O, Manganese (II) sulfate monohydrate --------------------------- 62-grams
    ZnO, Zinc oxide---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5-grams
    Na2B8O13 4H2O, Solubor ----------------------------------------------------------- 4-grams
    CuSO4●5H2O, Copper sulfate penta-hydrate (blue4)------------------------------ 4-grams
    H2MoO4, Molybdic acid or dihydroxidodioxidomolybdenum------------------- 1-gram

    I can figure any of them for any combination.

    Biollante
    The first sign we don't know what we are doing is an obsession with numbers. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

    Disclaimer: I am not trying to make you mad, it is just what I am, an evil plant monster, 'nuf said.

    • I believe the information I am giving is sound, I am not a veterinarian, professional chemist or particularly bright and certainly not a "Guru.".
    • I assume you are of legal age, competent and it is legal for you to acquire, possess and use any materials or perform any action in your in your jurisdiction.
    • When in doubt "don't."

  4. Quote Originally Posted by trung_ngdu View Post
    I live in Vietnam. I cannot buy CSM+B here, so this thread is very useful. Can I substitute Fe2O3 for Fe2O3.3H2O ? Thank you, Biollante.

    Trung,
    Hey, can you order Seachem Flourish? I think you can get it there if you lived in Saigon.

    I got family there, where do you get your tank etc?

  5. Oh well, just my luck.
    CAme across this thread just a month too late.
    It is hard to get csm+b at reasonable rates here, so I was thinking of making a subsitute.
    I did not find anything on the net so I just calculated everything myself.
    Now it look like I invented the wheel.
    All in all a wonderful thread.
    Athough I frequent many forums, but this forum is fast becoming my top of the list.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Biollante View Post
    Hi

    Yes, I think you can easily substitute Ferrous Gluconate, C12H24FeO14●2 H2O.


    In ferrous gluconate, properly Iron (II) gluconate, the gluconate, properly Gluconic acid, C6H12O7, the sugar in honey and fruits, is the chelate.

    The problem is that gluconate is a much weaker chelate then EDTA.

    I have not tried this and I am do not smart enough to know whether the excess EDTA picks up any of the iron from the weaker gluconate.


    I suspect this formulation is definitely better for lower pH and daily dosing.


    Idealized form with Ferrous Gluconate:

    Note: The copper sulfate, Manganese (II) sulfate, and Zinc oxide need to be ground together with the EDTA first.

    EDTA, Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid-------------------------------------------159.3-grams
    MgSO4●7H2O, Magnesium sulfate hepta-hydrate, Epsom salt, ----------------152-grams
    C12H24FeO14●2 H2O, Iron (II) gluconate --------------------------------------610-grams
    MnSO4● H2O, Manganese (II) sulfate monohydrate ----------------------------- 62-grams
    ZnO, Zinc oxide------------------------------------------------------------------------ 5-grams
    Na2B8O13 ● 4H2O, Solubor -------------------------------------------------------- 6.7-grams
    CuSO4●5H2O, Copper sulfate penta-hydrate (blue)-------------------------------- 4-grams
    H2MoO4, Molybdic acid or dihydroxidodioxidomolybdenum--------------------- 1-gram


    16% EDTA
    8.5% sulfate (2.9% Sulfur)
    7% Iron (chelated)
    2%Mangenese (chelated)
    1.5% Magnesium
    1.4% Boron
    .75% Sodium
    .4% Zinc (chelated)
    .1% Copper (chelated)
    .06% Molybdenum


    Biollante
    If my understanding is correct, Fe gluconate is already in chelated form.
    Therefore is EDTA used to chelate other metals?
    How important is it to chelate other metals if iron is already in chelated form.
    I already have Fe gluconate, so will following ratio hold.

    EDTA, Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid ----------------------------------------------------129gms
    MgSO4●7H2O, Magnesium sulfate hepta-hydrate, Epsom salt -----------------------------152gms
    C12H24FeO14*2h20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------610gms
    MnSO4●5 H2O, Manganese sulfate penta-hydrate -----------------------------------------89gms
    ZnSO4●7 H2O, Zinc sulfate hepta-hydrate -----------------------------------------------18gms
    H3BO3, Boric acid ----------------------------------------------------------------------------5gms
    CuSO4●5H2O, Copper sulfate penta-hydrate (blue) ------------------------------------------4gms
    H2MoO4, Molybdic acid or dihydroxidodioxidomolybdenum -------------------------------------1gms


    AND

    My % will be

    Fe -------------------------------------------------7.63%
    Mg--------------------------------------------------2.11%
    Mn--------------------------------------------------2.29%
    B ---------------------------------------------------1.42%
    Zn---------------------------------------------------0.36%
    Cu --------------------------------------------------0.15%
    Mo--------------------------------------------------0.12%
    Last edited by sandeepraghuvanshi; 07-20-2012 at 12:30 PM.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Surprise, AZ
    Posts
    3,210

    Smile A Little Honey In The Water?

    Hi,

    I will have to do a little research, offhand (from fallible memory), gluconate is the anion of Gluconic acid formed at neutral pH in water. This is why iron gluconate is ineffective in alkaline water.

    I guess it would depend on the amount of excess gluconate in your iron.

    If you can get Potassium gluconate, a dietary supplement, the gluconate has to be weakly bound to the Potassium and will have an extreme preference for the higher oxidation states. I have not tried this so if you do, let me know how it goes.

    Oddly enough, I get reasonable chelates in slightly acidic solution, <pH6.8 or so, using honey.

    Actually it appears any dissolved organic material chelates, sequesters a certain amount of metal in water, especially when slightly acidic, so crappy water may be the answer.

    More later…

    Biollante
    Last edited by Biollante; 07-20-2012 at 06:14 PM. Reason: font
    The first sign we don't know what we are doing is an obsession with numbers. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

    Disclaimer: I am not trying to make you mad, it is just what I am, an evil plant monster, 'nuf said.

    • I believe the information I am giving is sound, I am not a veterinarian, professional chemist or particularly bright and certainly not a "Guru.".
    • I assume you are of legal age, competent and it is legal for you to acquire, possess and use any materials or perform any action in your in your jurisdiction.
    • When in doubt "don't."

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Biollante View Post
    Hi,
    I will have to do a little research, offhand (from fallible memory), gluconate is the anion of Gluconic acid formed at neutral pH in water. This is why iron gluconate is ineffective in alkaline water.
    I guess it would depend on the amount of excess gluconate in your iron.
    If you can get Potassium gluconate, a dietary supplement, the gluconate has to be weakly bound to the Potassium and will have an extreme preference for the higher oxidation states. I have not tried this so if you do, let me know how it goes.
    Biollante
    I have Ferrous gluconate, and that too a half kg packet, so I am stuck with it for some time.
    Do you mean I need to add Potassium gluconate to it?
    You lost me on this honey thing
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron%28II%29_gluconate

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Surprise, AZ
    Posts
    3,210

    Smile Gluconate, How Much, Do You Have Label Information?

    Hi,

    Sorry, I missed the point of your post.


    Let me start over (and I have done a little research).

    You are correct Fe gluconate is a chelated form of iron. I was correct gluconate is the anion of Gluconic acid formed at neutral pH in water; this tends to render it less effective as the pH increases.


    As to how important it is to chelate the other metals when using a chelated form of iron, depends entirely on how much excess chelating agent is available.

    I have been messing around with different alternatives for folks that do not have access to commercially available trace mixes. What I have found is that products such as CSM+B rely on huge excess amounts of EDTA.


    It is important that metals are chelated, complexed.


    My thought was that if you wanted to use gluconate to complex the other metals and not knowing how much excess gluconate was available, an obvious alternative would be Potassium gluconate, a dietary supplement, the gluconate is weakly bound to the Potassium and should prefer the higher oxidation states of Copper, Manganese and Zinc.


    I had forgotten about your water situation, pardon me, I tend to lock in on the thread context.


    If you are going to use iron gluconate in alkaline water, you will need to dose it a couple of times a day.

    I would start with figuring out how much you would need to meet your weekly target dose under optimum conditions <6.8 pH). Divide by 7 and dose that amount 2 or 3 times per day.

    There are many ways to “complex” metals. Organic materials among them, honey is one I have fooled around with and had some success.


    When using these alternatives or dosing at I rates it helps to have a high cation exchange capacity (CEC) substrate, just in case.


    Biollante
    The first sign we don't know what we are doing is an obsession with numbers. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

    Disclaimer: I am not trying to make you mad, it is just what I am, an evil plant monster, 'nuf said.

    • I believe the information I am giving is sound, I am not a veterinarian, professional chemist or particularly bright and certainly not a "Guru.".
    • I assume you are of legal age, competent and it is legal for you to acquire, possess and use any materials or perform any action in your in your jurisdiction.
    • When in doubt "don't."

  10. Well the label says
    Ferrous gluconate, Fe(C6H11O7)*2H2O, M.W. 482.17, 95-97%.

    Regarding honey, do you mean to say if I mix honey with fegluco, it will make it more stable?
    Regarding substrate, I have ada amazonia

Similar Threads

  1. Help verifying a PP dip formula
    By pat w in forum General Plant Topics
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 08-13-2010, 05:48 AM
  2. RCS and APN micro mix
    By cazandchris in forum Inverts
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 06-16-2010, 02:30 AM
  3. plant biomass formula
    By crystalview in forum Are you new to aquatic plants? Start here
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 09-08-2008, 05:04 AM
  4. Simple formula to calculate maximum error term for EI
    By orion2001 in forum Estimative Index
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 04-01-2008, 04:06 PM
  5. Barr's GH Booster Formula?
    By greenfish in forum CO2 Enrichment
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-02-2007, 01:01 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •