Can too much co2 be a bad thing?

[bsmith782]

Not for plants, but for the entire tank or rather the biological systems and process that occur in our tanks.

I have been dealing with cyanobacteria for some time now even after multiple Erythro treatments, copious amounts of manual removal and pretty much everything else short if calling an Arapaho rainmaker in to chant my bacteria problems away.

Through many messages with another hobbiest I started thinking about the adverse effects longer exposure to high levels of co2 concentration could cause with the bio activity or as I have been thinking, the immune system of a planted tank. This was after she commented on how in the slides of bacteria she was looking through she found it odd that there was practically no presence of the gram- bacteria that inhabit our tanks and are responsible for pretty much keeping it healthy. Before anyone says 'well that's because you have Ben dosing antibiotics in the tank (erythromycin)'. These forms (pretty much all the gram- bacteria) are extremely resistant to erythro and that's why it's not a problem to use it in our tanks.

Since the gram+/- bacteria that live in an aquatic system all need to be present in certain numbers to break down (for simplicity sake) ammonia into more useful/efficient complexes. In my mind it would stand to reason that if something (too much co2) disrupted the populations of these bacteria enough the tank could get sick (have a very stubborn and resilient cyanobacteria infection).

I have always tried to put as much co2 into my tanks as the fauna could handle. This tank I'm having this cyano problem in has no fauna to limit my co2 injection. I'm certain though that no fish could live in this tank because if the co2 levels. Now this may be part me having lots of co2 in the tank part bad drop checker design but in this tank I still have a pretty yellow drop checker in the morning when I come to work. That is 13 hours after the gas is turned off the night before. I also have decent surface agitation in this and all my tanks (co2 or not) as I have seen/read/exoeriebced the benefits of good o2 exchange. Since this idea came to light I have the gas turning off two hours earlier (6pm) now and of course there is no scientific data here but to me there is less cyano in the tank. Before if I went 5 days with out sucking as much as I could out if the tank with my gravel vacuums siphon hose iTunes cyano was thick and very prominent. Now (after lessening co2 injection by 2 hours) I would say that the cyano has lessened by 20%-30%.

I have lots of great pics taken through a microscope of the bacterias in my tank and if anyone wants to see them I'll post them up.

So I thought I would let you guys ponder this and let me know what your thoughts are.

[pepetj]

Please post the cyanobacteria microscope pics. I would love to see them.

Erythromycin works pretty well for ciano-bacteria control, at least in the tanks I've tried it. I wonder if too much CO2 (I have a couple of tanks with readings over 60ppm +/- 5ppm of dissolved CO2 [Hach CO2 test kit without reference solution so take the 60ppm with a grain of salt] with fish pretty well adapted in them). pH in my tanks with a range of 45 to 60 ppm of dissolved CO2 (as measured by Hach test one hour before lights off, shortly before CO2 turns off) are within 6.1 to 5.9 range.

I wonder if acidic water may interfere with efficiency of Erythromycin pharmacodymamics and pharmacokinetics. Hopefully Tom, Gerry, Biollante will enlighten us here...

Pepetj
Santo Domingo

[Matt F.]

Intersting topic. I, too, inject about as much co2 as possible. Wonder how acidic conditions affect the aquarium enviornment, bacteria, and algae/plant growth. subscribed.

[bsmith782]

Please post the cyanobacteria microscope pics. I would love to see them.

Erythromycin works pretty well for ciano-bacteria control, at least in the tanks I've tried it. I wonder if too much CO2 (I have a couple of tanks with readings over 60ppm +/- 5ppm of dissolved CO2 [Hach CO2 test kit without reference solution so take the 60ppm with a grain of salt] with fish pretty well adapted in them). pH in my tanks with a range of 45 to 60 ppm of dissolved CO2 (as measured by Hach test one hour before lights off, shortly before CO2 turns off) are within 6.1 to 5.9 range.

I wonder if acidic water may interfere with efficiency of Erythromycin pharmacodymamics and pharmacokinetics. Hopefully Tom, Gerry, Biollante will enlighten us here...

Pepetj
Santo Domingo

I'll get the pics up when I get to work today, they are pretty wild looking!

I agree with erythro being a good method to rid your tank of cyano. It killed all of it in my tank, problem is that it came back every time.

Intersting topic. I, too, inject about as much co2 as possible. Wonder how acidic conditions affect the aquarium enviornment, bacteria, and algae/plant growth. subscribed.

Hopefully someone can either support my feelings or solidly prove them false. Either way it world be helpful.

[Biollante]

Post Deleted, My Bad.

No intention to offend, I find this stuff interesting is all...

My heartfelt apologies.

Biollente

[ShadowMac]

Hi,

Erythromycin is generally most effective in alkaline conditions generally pH 7.2 is listed as the minimum effective pH.



A couple of problems Erythromycin, is very harsh stuff, for aquatic situations, mainly effective for serious eye infections (Gram-positive) and Streptococcus, beyond that not overly effective. Even then I would not recommend the use of Erythromycin in any tank that hasn’t been established for at least a year. In my ever-humble-potted-plant opinion Erythromycin are over-rated for aquatic infections.


Since cyanobacteria have Gram-negative cell walls, Erythromycin is not a terribly good choice, as always in as diverse a group as cyanobacteria, there are exceptions.

Then I am one of those evil plant monsters that simply do not think “shortcuts” in general are a good idea.



Why not change the conditions to favor your desired plants, critters and microbes?


Biollante

I absolutely agree with the sentiment here. I cringe every time I hear erythromycin mentioned as a solution. Its essentially treating a symptom of a greater problem.

[Biollante]

Post Deleted, My Bad.

No intention to offend, I find this stuff interesting is all...

My heartfelt apologies.

Biollente

[bsmith782]

The tank that is suffering from the cyano us not a new tank in any way at all so I'm not sure why we're discussing it as if it were. Perhaps I didn't preface the situation enough or perhaps the membership here is not familiar with me as an aquarist but not only have I tried more things to stop this issue than some people could even comprehend (I guess My rainmaker comment in the first post went over some heads...) but I absolutely loath adding chemicals in any form for any reason to any of my tanks. But the comments about treating the symptoms and not the root and tisk tisk you used chemicals should have been foreseen as they always pop up in threads mentioning their use for some useless reason or another. Some people just must show the definition on their cerebellum when they flex their brain.

Does anyone think there would have been micro pictures of the bacteria if I had simply jumped to Erythro? Really?

Not usually this snarky but did anyone read the initial post?

I'll post up the pix as soon as I get home, it's been a long day.

[bsmith782]

This is an un identified type of Cyano


I nice shot where you can see some purple sulfur bacteria (why it stinks so bad)


Further out


In this one you can see the heterocysts which are where the N fixation occurs

[Tom Barr]

Heterocyst are only formed when NEEDED as a rule. And it's VERY unlikely they are needed in most all planted tanks, there's a lot of N floating around.
Heterocyst require a lot of energy and resources, BGA/cyano are not going to expend the resources for that until the bitter end. And the plants would die and not have enough N by the time you get down to that ranges.