Substrate heating

[pejerrey]

Oh, Tom... Do you know "qualia soup"?

If not I'm happy to present it to you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h9XntsSEro&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Edit: I posted the wrong link earlier, this is the correct video I wanted to show you

[Biollante]

Hi,

This is the link pejerrey is trying for, worth the time I think.

Skewed views of science

Biollante

[Tom Barr]

These are the same arguments I've heard over and over from the Heater Cable crowd.
No methods, to objective unbias test, no attempts of falsification, nothing. Belief and preemptive rejection of any facts that question their beliefs and bias.
Then they poo poo me with social control by calling me rude(false claim of personal attacks), blinding them with information(do not care enough to do the homework), bullying them(because they lack the ability/effort required to defend themselves in a debate), posting too much for them to respond too(Lazy) and arrogant(reverse snobbery).

Well, let's fast forward 10 years later: ADA fan boys........ADA powersand, Penac, Toumaline etc.......same exact stuff.

Now Dupla and ADA do have some good products and certainly have done many good things for the hobby while enriching the companies. There is support for nice lighting, filtration, high quality tanks, filters, CO2 equipment etc.
There is good support for ADA aqua soil. But not the other things I have questioned. Because I am not particularly nice and spend a significant amount of time trying walk around some people's touchy feelings on these subjects, I have had plenty of run ins and with other web forum's and their site owners, and I've been banned or threatened by those moderators/owners. Will I change and make peace with these forms of social control?

Never.

[pejerrey]

Hi,

This is the link pejerrey is trying for, worth the time I think.

Skewed views of science

Biollante

Thank you, yes that is what I wanted to share. Cool video huh?

These are the same arguments I've heard over and over from the Heater Cable crowd.
No methods, to objective unbias test, no attempts of falsification, nothing. Belief and preemptive rejection of any facts that question their beliefs and bias.
Then they poo poo me with social control by calling me rude(false claim of personal attacks), blinding them with information(do not care enough to do the homework), bullying them(because they lack the ability/effort required to defend themselves in a debate), posting too much for them to respond too(Lazy) and arrogant(reverse snobbery).

Well, let's fast forward 10 years later: ADA fan boys........ADA powersand, Penac, Toumaline etc.......same exact stuff.

Now Dupla and ADA do have some good products and certainly have done many good things for the hobby while enriching the companies. There is support for nice lighting, filtration, high quality tanks, filters, CO2 equipment etc.
There is good support for ADA aqua soil. But not the other things I have questioned. Because I am not particularly nice and spend a significant amount of time trying walk around some people's touchy feelings on these subjects, I have had plenty of run ins and with other web forum's and their site owners, and I've been banned or threatened by those moderators/owners. Will I change and make peace with these forms of social control?

Never.

I totally understand, I think the most difficult part in a discussion where the topic itself is a lil silly, is to not make the other person feel a bit silly when they realize they actually are been a bit silly. When people get defensive, its impossible to really continue in a productive conversation. Most people have been trained by society to think a certain way (an easier way IMO) its just a few that are more skeptical and try to understand why the established knowledge is accepted (more work to think right?).

When I accept a truth, has to make sense to me. I have no first hand experience with it, then I use the words "I believe" and as for the factual knowledge I use "I know". Then I research and try to wrap my head around it.

Coming back about the previous comment I made about the water bottles around the tomatoes... I had a roommate that wanted to do that, it looked awful. So we argued a bit about it with no results... and I went and I bough a digital thermometer with memory (comes handy dandy with aquariums too) that saves the highest and coldest temp in two different places and the time that happened. Guess what, no difference between using the ugly water bottles or not. Then he was upset, it was like been attached to his idea was more important than moving on and finding a better solution if there was one.

I learned to see this same behavior in other people and other situations. Seems like a very common human thing, therefore I most work with it in the most productive way to get the best results, I guess. Maybe if I present the information in an attractive manner that has some gain for the recipient and also doesn't make them feel intellectually inferior (more work I know). Is hard to let go of beliefs when you haven't realized is a good thing to do so.

Some people, just cant be told what is going on and that they are wrong straight on their face, they need a lil fairy tale first.

[Tom Barr]

I've long held folks to test themselves, then they will know, say like with PO4: "add 2ppm and see if you get an algae bloom like these folks claim, if not, then what does that tell you?"

Then it's no longer belief.

Also, when you see a nice tank with 2-5ppm of PO4........or lacking heat cables...........that also is a fact and falsifies the claim also.
It's like the guy who claim's he does not eat manure, then we post the youtube of him eating a big old pie.

[pejerrey]

Lol! Long time ago when I was measuring like 4-5ppm of PO4 and I didn't have much algae, I was very confused by what people told me, one other reason why I tossed that test kit. Lol!
At the end, if I had algae problems ever, it was lack of co2 by the means of lack of water movement or distribution whatever you wanna call it. A powerhead did the trick at the time.

[Tom Barr]

CO2, water flow, filtration, light PAR values...these are the main drivers and we see this in Tropica's Article on CO2 and light independent of nutrients.
EI just provides a starting point where ferts are independent. If you use sediments, then rooted plants also have little issue growing non limited as well, at least till the sediment supply of N mostly......is exhausted.

Many folks had similar experiences with PO4 and NO3, having gone very high...for months and realized it only much later.
Some have tried very hard to keep them low as possible with a much higher failure rate.
Still, a few had high NO3/PO4 and algae, so they will blame the ferts, NEVER the light or CO2.

This is backwards.