Help! My snails aren't happy

[Florin Ilia]

Hi Bio,

Possible stressors that I can think about:
- fluctuating levels of CO2, including a period with over 110 ppm (short - hours, or a day at most); I was experimenting, reading stuff on the net...
- our living room temperature used to be around 26⁰C; when we set up the shrimp tank we decided to lower it to 24⁰ - and we started the regime I described in my previous message; I estimate that, on average, the temperature dropped around 1.5⁰C
- as a long time stressor I can think of increased bioload - I used to have 5 cories and 6 otos in the tank, i.e. around 1 cm fish/liter. For a couple of weeks or so I even had two bettas and 6 Cambarellus patzcuarensis on top of everything else. My Staghorn problems went away after I removed the otos among other things.

I can't think of anything else right now but with
- me being a noob
and with
- the tap water quality perhaps fluctuating,
something else could have happened of course.

Florin

[Biollante]

Hi,

An ammonia or nitrite event seems an unlikely stressor, given the lack of harm to critters in general and shrimp in particular. It is possible ammonia was the stressor; I have not yet been able to reproduce it.


I have considered and tried high CO₂; usually I have critter stress or death. I have tried sharp changes in pH as well as osmotic pressure. Remember that just because I have yet to see effects in the various test I have run does not mean they will not show themselves and of course it may turn out there is more than one way to grow algae on a snail!


I find these things take quite a while to nail down and by the time they are no one is interested.

I have just finished out another study (unscientific of course) so I have freed a lot of space. However, I may have to depend on others¹ to complete this as The LoudCreatureWhatSharesMySpace and I will begin our travels shortly and will be away for two years or so.

We have wired the place up and I just signed a three-year web-hosting package to put our tanks,² greenhouses and ponds on the internet, along with real-time data. We will make it available to the public. We will also invite anyone who wishes to participate to stream data, photos and perhaps video.³

We have arranged, are arranging to put all the unscientific studies, photos and/or videos of our/my often farcical attempts to learn something, I promise you, if you think some of your photos are ugly, you have another think coming.


It does appear I was able to prevail upon my captors to be in Bucharest in late September, I will get the dates to you as soon as I have them.


Biollante
¹Real smarty-pants sorts who actually know things.
²Including I think some cool underwater perspectives.
³This is tougher since there are a percentage of pure jerks that make it difficult.

[Florin Ilia]

Bio, that's great! I am looking forward to see your tanks and learn from your studies. Thoroughly unscientific all of them, I am sure

Also great news on coming to Bucharest! I'll take you to visit Casa Poporului and then we'll have dinner in a discreet place that I know. You foreigners all love these kinds of things.

Don't worry, I'm kidding, I won't force you to do any of those activities. Maybe you and your guardians can just join us for a quiet evening at my home, where we can set up some new snail buckets...

The possibilities are endless Just let me know when you're coming.

Florin

[Biollante]

Hi,

We would love to see the sights with you, not so sure, about your “discreet place,” we do the tourist bit love the sightseeing but honestly, when it comes to eating, we like to go where real people go.

Well “we” have had a bit of a breakthrough; two of the containers and a 2⅟₂-gallon aquarium all have snails with mobile gardens growing.

• What is interesting is one of them I did not “stress.”

I also observed the “crazy” behavior, appeared drunk, so of course I grabbed some snails from other tanks and got them drunk on Vodka, was pretty close to the earlier observed behavior. A couple of them apparently drown (it is possible I overdosed them on Vodka, I was trying to be careful not too) so I rescued the others and sobered them up with a little coffee, just kidding; I put them in petri dishes with a little water and lettuce. I do believe they had hangovers though.

I do not know of any good way to test for neurotoxins, but that is my guess, since various algae and cyanobacteria produce them.

I also observed shrimp seemingly drunk as well. The shrimp not being affected as always bothered me. Now it seems to me they probably were, but since they are not obligate air breathers, they just wandered away and slept it off.

Fascinating!

Biollante

[Florin Ilia]

Now this is an experiment I can relate to. Only cruel pet owners don't share vodka with their pets. I'm with you there man

If you could post a pic or two of your hairy snails I could tell you how much they look like what i had.

[Biollante]

Hi Florin,

The planted snail exercise is beginning to look a lot like “the tattoo seemed like a good idea when I was drunk,” thing.

• Turns out these snails just can’t handle their neurotoxins or vodka.
• Snail breeding is minimal; given water conditions, they should be covering the place.

Seems the shrimp wander off, sleep it off and stay active enough no algae or moss or whatever gets a foothold.

It will take a while to see if it is statistically significant but the shrimp, deaths seem elevated.

• In addition, we are not seeing significant numbers of baby shrimp.
• It is possible some of this is due to less than pristine conditions,
  
  • but I have examples of shrimp breeding in poor water conditions.

I have started a few groups in matching water conditions, without neurotoxins, a couple of groups will get vodka.


As to iron loss, I think the best explanation is going to be residual Potassium permanganate.

• I am not seeing any iron loss associated with the cyanobacteria and water conditions.

However, it takes amazingly small amounts of PP to precipitate the iron.

• I suspect beyond the Potassium, the way PP attacks carbon bonds,
  
  • the iron literally falls out.

When I am there in September, I hope to do some serious analysis of the water.

• I will see if I can abuse my position and get someone to explain your water system and perhaps give a tour.

I suspect I will get permission to do a little specimen collecting, give us a chance to see what lurks in the environment.

Biollante

[Florin Ilia]

Hi Bio!

• Turns out these snails just can’t handle their neurotoxins or vodka.
• Snail breeding is minimal; given water conditions, they should be covering the place.

Minimal snail & shrimp breeding is something I also noticed. Minimal cory breeding as well. In about one year I only saw cory eggs once (3 eggs, none survived).

As to iron loss, I think the best explanation is going to be residual Potassium permanganate.

• I am not seeing any iron loss associated with the cyanobacteria and water conditions.

PP may be a cause, but it's not my cause, as I never used PP in that tank. If you PM me your address I can send you a batch of that extra-special high-grade magic AC that I used so you can test in the exact same conditions that I had.

When I am there in September, I hope to do some serious analysis of the water.

• I will see if I can abuse my position and get someone to explain your water system and perhaps give a tour.

I suspect I will get permission to do a little specimen collecting, give us a chance to see what lurks in the environment.

I am looking forward to that

[Florin Ilia]

Yesterday I was with my camera in hand so here's two random pics of a badly damaged nerite interacting with a shrimp. Both characters are present in the pictures from back when we were discussing my snails. I am surprised the poor nerite lived (look at his shell...).

[Biollante]

Hi Florin,

Great photographs!

I think that provides a marvelous example of the resilience of these creatures.

I think the photo is an interesting example of the interaction between critters. Note the bit of algae on the snail.
(I may be reading too much into this, thereby provoking a Tug, “laughing monkey” retaliation.)

Anyway, I have been doing a lot of reading on snails and the various chemical warfare between critters, plants fungi and the undecided.

Biollante

[Tom Barr]

You can see specific patterning in the shell loss, not entire dissolution/thinning.

This suggest the protective layer was damaged or algae attached and killed, or damaged that layer.