Aquatic Plant Fertz Question (K Solution)

[Tyger]

Greetings Folks,

I guess that I will start by saying that I have an aquarium that tends to have more than enough phosphates (P) and nitrates (K) created through the ecosystem in the aquarium. In terms of fertilizer dosing, I am planning to custom mixture using a rotational system described by Guitarfish (cf., What I Do) based around a hybrid of Perceptual Preservation System. In any case, I have read and created SS, NF, PF, Mg, & TE mixtures w/plans to create K mixture and GM Booster Solutions. Unfortunately, PPS does not describe the creation of K Solution (using Potassium Sulfate [cf., K Solution Pfertz]). As a result, I was wondering whether someone has done the research and has recommended dry fertizilation amounts for mixing a 450 ml bottle with an appropriate dosing regime (vs direct teaspoon dry dosing to aquarium).

Thank-you, in advance, for thoughts, guidance, and advice,

~Tyger (Michael)~

[Crispino Ramos]

I just dose 1/3 potassium just like as much nitrogen and phosphorous.

[pepetj]

K from K2SO4 and KH2PO4 should suffice.

What worries me about the proposal of PPS-Pro is the absence of NO3 dosage. I haven't tried this method yet what would happen if N becomes limited?

Hopefully the gurus (e.g. Biollante, Gregg, Dutchy, Tom...) will help us clarify this.

Pepetj
Santo Domingo

[Biollante]

Hi Michael,

According to our old friend Philosophos, Pfertz K is a one liter solution of 43.97-grams of potassium sulfate, K2SO4 and distilled water. I think it would be safe to round it up to 44-grams of potassium sulfate.

Here is the article http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/b...sing-pmpd.html.

By the way, that is a 1.97% potassium solution and I do think it rather strange and a little too mysterious for my tastes. 45-grams yields a bit over 2% K solution.

Oh, well hope this helps.

Biollante

[Tom Barr]

K from K2SO4 and KH2PO4 should suffice.

What worries me about the proposal of PPS-Pro is the absence of NO3 dosage. I haven't tried this method yet what would happen if N becomes limited?

Hopefully the gurus (e.g. Biollante, Gregg, Dutchy, Tom...) will help us clarify this.

Pepetj
Santo Domingo

Ad far as I could ever tell or worm out of the so caleld creator of PPS, it's the same darn thing as PPMD with a little bit of PO4, ironically, the exact SAME amount that Paul Sears suggested should be added if it was limiting below 0.2ppm.

So rather than detail out PPS, I think credit should given to Paul and Kevin.
PPS never gave any credit to PMDD folks.

I gave Paul and Kevin far more than that and I did not copy it almost verbatim.

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertil...rs-conlin.html

the theory about algae was disproven, however the limited dosign routine was still functional, but did not yeild good results at higher light at the time.
I added more nutrient sand more CO2 to account for this ina balanced rational way. Later, I realized that if I was dosing all these ferrts and have high CO2, my plants also did much much better.

So then folks came over and started testing my tank
Lots of ferts and lots of PO4. So this busted the theory and selling point about algae, but it still adds the same darn thing and has the same general set points and targets as PPS....and we KNOW PMDD is a widely available and common dosign routine and pre dated PPS by 6-7 years or more.

Put another way, EI just doses more/richer, and you can start from the non limiting range and reduce, or you can dose PMDD and add 2-3 part liquids and raise it up to non limiting.
So you could add more of PMDD or less of EI and end up in the same range.

When folks claim one is better than the other, it matters about the tank in question and the consumptoin rate.
The excess we know is not detrimental and cannot be the direct cause of algae.

Indirectly, limiting PO4 strong will also reduce the CO2 demand, there's just not enough PO4 to mak ethe plant's CO2 fixation efficient.

So if you where not adding enouygh CO2 or did poor management there, poor CO2 caused depenency and strongly limiting PO4 help relieve this limitation. So you are trading one limiting factor another but cannot tell you have a CO2 dependency issue, put another way, CO2 is not independent in such test.

[Tom Barr]

Greetings Folks,

I guess that I will start by saying that I have an aquarium that tends to have more than enough phosphates (P) and nitrates (K) created through the ecosystem in the aquarium. In terms of fertilizer dosing, I am planning to custom mixture using a rotational system described by Guitarfish (cf., What I Do) based around a hybrid of Perceptual Preservation System. In any case, I have read and created SS, NF, PF, Mg, & TE mixtures w/plans to create K mixture and GM Booster Solutions. Unfortunately, PPS does not describe the creation of K Solution (using Potassium Sulfate [cf., K Solution Pfertz]). As a result, I was wondering whether someone has done the research and has recommended dry fertizilation amounts for mixing a 450 ml bottle with an appropriate dosing regime (vs direct teaspoon dry dosing to aquarium).

Thank-you, in advance, for thoughts, guidance, and advice,

~Tyger (Michael)~

you make little mention of the N and P levels you have, so withouit any idea there, a good target is 20-30ppm of K+.

A simple dosing calculator(see Wet's for example) will tell you how much K2SO4 you'll need.
See wet's and target the 20ppm range

BTW, all dosing methods are slight hybrids, we tweak and mess a little with them, and mnay often ascribe far more importance to them than other things, like light and CO2.
A good rich sediment will also go a long way to helping improve things horticulturally as well.

As Kris......(Guitar fish) mentioned, he does something in between or as I suggested and have over many years, start high and then slowly reduce till you see a negative response, this is the Critical point.
So start with a non limtiing independent method, then back off. This makes things easier as a reference for what good growth that is not limited by ferts looks like, without knowning this range, one cannot have any reference to compare to or realize WHERE the critical point is.

Here's a graph of it:



Here's another with soil alone and with soil + fertilizer:


Here's another


This growth chart could not be produced without using non limiting fertilizer, since it would affect growth rates, thus the nutrients ar eindependent and thus allow the plant to use CO2 and light at it's most efficent. Light use and CO2 fixation are the largest resource allocations for the growth of aquatic plants.

This chart shows that for each case, light and CO2 are very wide range sSTILL produced some growth, the question is , which is easiest to maintain and handle and which is the most efficent for the plant.
Answer: low light + rich CO2.

Take this a step farther, add ferts.......now it's sediment ferts, + modified EI and now you have a simple method that's easy to manage.
You can do solutions also, EI never cared a hill of beans about that, solutions turn some folks off. Teaspoons seem more publicly acceptable and familar than adding 52.01 grams of this to 450mls of liquid and I need to dose 2.8mls daily.

And this is true.........

Still, there's no reason it does not work and gives some folks something to do I suspect.
Liquids are good if you like the daily dosing thing or have a nano tank etc and want a bit more accuracy, not that it is needed......mind you.
I have and can prove other wise on that question.

You'll note the D range in the grpah, it's the largest in terms of the concetration or ppm range, far more than any of the others.
That's EI.
PMDD targets the B range, sometimes the A range if you not careful and is the narrowest range..........however........you still get SOME growth in all cases on the graph.
With out testing these other ranges on the graph, many hobbyist simply lack the knowledge and the experience to know what is going on often times, then they get buffeloed with myths and accept them as true.

I think Seachem uses KCL for theirs, Tropica might also, so a mix of that or the K2SO4, or KHCO3 like ADA, you can go a few different ways there.

In the mid to late 1990's we added lot and lots of K+ in many clubs and on the APD.
It is the most flexiable range of any of the nutrients I'd say/suggest, 2ppm to 120ppm without any issues.

Big target in other words or D range.

[Tyger]

I wanted to begin by taking a moment to say thank-you for all the information including the specs on K Solution with Pfertz. I wanted to let you know I will give it a more full reading after work. I will post pictures of the tank, specs, and Sunday's and today's water test results as baseline and get advice, guidance, and wisdom from that point.

In the meantime, I guess I had a couple of questions regarding toxic impact of certain ferts on fauna, for example, nitrates and phosphates, which may boil down to a question of a limiting factor which brings me back around to specs and/or possibly feeding. In any case, I guess my three basic questions are:

• Toxicity? Water Test indicate certain levels of nitrates and phosphates can be toxic. So, when dosing is that a concern as to dosing levels or is it more about plant absorption (meaning ferts are absorbed by plants fast enough that has little to no impact on fish and is only a concern when ferts are not absorbed and sit in water column?)
• PMDD? I am pretty new to hi-tech ferts planted tanks and so I am not familar with term PMDD; if it is not too much trouble, what does it stand for... and is there a good primer article or two?
• Aside Question: I was reading an post on GWAPA regarding Purigen which lead me to read about the product (i.e., "Purigen® controls ammonia, nitrites and nitrates by removing nitrogenous organic waste that would otherwise release these harmful compounds"). Given the importance of nitrates (NPK), I was left to wonder about the impact on ferts, especially nitrates. So, when we use Seachem Prime, in the short term, and Purigen, for a long-term, how does it impact the nitrogen (nitrate) levels? Does it undo what we are doing?

Well, back to work,

~Tyger (Michael)~

[Tom Barr]

I guess my three basic questions are:

• Toxicity? Water Test indicate certain levels of nitrates and phosphates can be toxic.
  

• So is caffeine, but folks drink it daily, DOSE [exposure X concentration] makes the poison, so the REAL question is at what concentrations do we see negative impacts on plants, algae blooms or fish?
  
  PO4 is non toxic until it becomes a salinity stress, I'd say the same for K+.
  NO3?
  
  Most stuff suggest about 300-800ppm for WARM water fish species.
  
  Hoagland's solution for non limiting growth for hydroponic research is about 235ppm N, 35 ppm P, and 210 ppm K+, so the plants are a very long way from toxicity, same for fish.
  
  You cannot keep plants and nutrient limit algae however, their limits on nutrients are extremely low.
  
  So this gives us a massive range to work with, anywhere from say 5ppm NO3 to say 30ppm, there's no NEED to add more than about 30ppm NO3.
  But if we mess up and add 60ppm, 2x as much, no big deal either.
  
  And that is the point, there is no reasonable associated risk with over dosing ferts.
  Folks do it all the time and no one has reported issues in mnay aquariums. For it to be a true cause.........we'd have to have consistent results that suggest it is a driving factor and a cause, but the results do not show this, we must reject the hypothesis that there is some narrow range of ferts that are acceptable.
  
  Folks that disagree simply have not tested this concept themselves and and rely of what they have read elsewhere and on myth. There is no support for this over the suggested ranges.
  
  This might be painful for some to swallow and hear, but the results are VERY clear on this matter regarding aquarium planted tanks and the fish, algae and plants of course.
  
  

  So, when dosing is that a concern as to dosing levels or is it more about plant absorption (meaning ferts are absorbed by plants fast enough that has little to no impact on fish and is only a concern when ferts are not absorbed and sit in water column?)

  Well higher concentration will drive faster uptake. Up to a point.
  I do not think we get more growth above about 30ppm in the water column for NO3.
  Maybe 40ppm for some species. Other species might max out at say 5-10ppm, but they are fine if you have 50ppm as well, the model graph above predicts this also.
  
  But no, there's absolutely no evidence that dosing ferts in a planted tank has any ADVERSE impact in short, long term health or breeding. Same for Shrimp near as I or anyone willing to test can tell.
  
  Plenty claim there is.....but NEVER seem to be able to support the claim with evidence, citations and examples curiously. I have to wonder why
  
  The issue at hand : is there any risk associated with a range of ferts ppm in the water? No one has shown that is does, in fact, there are far far more examples which falsify this claim, that even remotely support it.
  
  I have high grade CRS's, all breed in in an EI dosed tank, likewise, Sturisoma have been breeding every 2 weeks for the last 4 months in my 180 Gal, I dose 45ppm NO3 every week, 15ppm PO4, and maybe 60ppm of K+. And I have rich sediment, ADA aqua soil.
  
  Plus, I feed them like mad.
  
  Plus the Local clubs have seen this in person.
  So if we are not telling the truth, we is all in cahoots
  Hehe, not likely.
  
  
  

• PMDD? I am pretty new to hi-tech ferts planted tanks and so I am not familar with term PMDD; if it is not too much trouble, what does it stand for... and is there a good primer article or two?

[Tom Barr]

I'd rather you spend your time reading this article if you are newer...........I think it's is far far more important for folks to fully understand than to get bogged down with ferts and micromanagement.

http://www.tropica.com/advising/tech...and-light.aspx

Spend some time with this, read it a few times carefully.

[Tyger]

AQUARIUM (65-Gallons : 36x18x24):

• AQUARIUM & EQUIPMENT:
  
  • Catalina Aquarium Light [T5-HO] (Custom Made): 6700k (x2); 10000k (x2); 15-LED Moonlights.
  • Marineland C-360 Canister Filter System (AmmoCarb Mix) w/Undergravel (I know - beginner's mistake (when I do a major rescape I will remove).
  • Eco-Complete Plant Substrate (Black)
  • Scaping: None
  • Status: Currently Observing Plants, Experimenting w/Different Fish, Figuring Out CO & Fertz w/Rescape To Be Done
• FAUNA & FLORA:
  
  • Inverts: Amano Shrimp, Assassin Snails, Cherry Shrimp, Singapore Flower Shrimp, Zebra Nerite (Pond & Rams Nearly Gone - Assassin Snails)
  • Fish: Angelfish, Small (1); Celestial Diano (9); Cherry Barbs (4); Otocinclus (3); SAE [True](2); Tiger Hillstream Loach (3); (9); Cherry Barbs (4); Red Velvet Swordtail (Hifin, Lyretail) (1); White Cloud (Common & Long-Fin) (5)
  • Plants: Aciotis Acuminifolia, Anubias Barteri (Barteri, Nana, Petite), Anubias Hastifolia, Blyxa Japonica, Cambomba Caroliniana, Cryptocoryne Nurii, Lagenandra Meeboldii, Ludwigia Inclinata var. "Tornado, Ludwigia Repens, Ludwigia Senegalensis, Persicaria praetermissa, Pogostemon Helferi, Pogostemon Erectus, Rotala (Rotundifolia sp. Colorata & Wallichii), Staurogyne sp.
• WATER TEST RESULTS (Last Several):
  
  • NOTES: CO2 = Calculated Estimate; Ca - Measured @ 0 > Mg Cannot Be Calculated
  • EVENTS:
    
    • 06/07/11 - Pressured CO2 System Added
    • 07/11/10 - 80% Water Change

DATE TEMP pH GH KH (CO2)* NH3 NO2 NO3 P Fe Ca Mg

07/12 78.5...6.8...5.0....5.5....26.2....0....0....00... .0.8....0.5....0....-
07/11 78.5...6.8...4.0....4.0....26.2....0....0....03... .1.0....0.5....0....-
06/18 78.0...6.8...8.0....8.0....26.2....0....0....30... .1.5.... - .... - ....-
06/07 78.0...6.6...6.0....6.0....37.7....0....0....40... .1.0.... - .... - ....-
05/18 78.0...7.2...4.5....4.5....07.6....0....0....20... .1.0.... - .... - ....-
05/08 75.0...7.4...6.0....6.0....04.8....0....0....40... .2.0.... - .... - ....-

NOTES: I should add that one of my concerns and disconnects has been with what should be a good NO3 level for plant fert vs toxicity warnings for fish. So, I guess that I am less concerned w/ levels of 30-40ppm. As I do not use buffers, I used the estimated CO2 calculated through AquarioGest (Software) and monitor with a CO2 Indicator. I have maintained this take for about 9-months and these are most recent test results. Finally, I keep the heater set at 75 F; however, in the summer months, I keep the house temperature on a automatic schedule at 78 F (when we are not home) and 76 F (when home); so the average temperature in cool months is 74-75 F in the summer 78-80 F.