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Thread: Dosing:

  1. #1
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    Talking Roll You're Own.


    When plants find sufficient nutrients,
    energy is available for photosynthesis,
    Carotenoids, Xanthophylls and Chlorophyll - all good.

    Light (1.2wpg T5HO) - High Tech (DIY CO2)
    50% Weekly Water change.

    The Stuff of EI
    Macro and Micro - nutrients.

    T20 gal:
    24" x 12" x 16"


    NPK - Dose, on days I through VII.
    4mL/65L ≈ NO3, 2.6 ppm & 0.5 ppm PO4.

    Trace - Dose, on days I through VII.
    Fe is a proxy for all trace nutrient levels.
    4mL/65L ≈ 0.2ppm Fe, from CSM+B & 0.02 dGH

    NPK MIX
    62 g. KNO3 ~ 12 tsp
    12 g. KH2PO4 ~ 2 tsp
    12 g. K2SO4 + ~ 2 tsp
    900 mL container/distilled water

    DC tap water contains 2ppm of NO3 & PO4, respectively.

    Typical uptake rates with non-limiting CO2, per day (24 hours):
    Quote Originally Posted by Admin View Post

    • NO3 1-4ppm
    • NH4 0.1-0.6ppm (do not dose NH4!It will cause algae)
    • PO4 0.2-0.6ppm

    These rates do not assume that you will show deficiencies if you dose less than this, but adding more than these rates will not help further plant health.
    This is a point that the aquarist needs to understand. Basically, it is extremely unlikely your plants will ever need more than these rates even at high light intensities. Adding enough nutrients to prevent anything from becoming deficient is the goal, not precise uptake and growth requirements.
    CSM+B Trace
    Fe 7% Mg 1.50% Cu 0.1% B 1.18%
    Mn 2% Zn 0.4% Mo 0.06%
    CSM+B DIY Formula ~ Biollante
    Comparison Of Trace Products ~ James' Planted Tank

    Trace MIX *19ml = 1/4 teaspoon of dry Plantex, 2(Fe).
    52 g. Plantex CSM+Boron ~12 tsp
    12 g. DTPA ~3 tsp
    7 g. Fe gluconate ~3 tsp
    15 g. MgSO4 + ~ 3 tsp
    900 mL container/distilled water

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Barr View Post
    Plantex CSM+B is often mixed into solution for liquid dosing. 1 tablespoon to 250ml water is equivalent to: 20 ml = 1/4 teaspoon of dry Plantex.
    Chelated Fe types.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Barr View Post
    For moderately hard water consider using DTPA Fe in addition to Plantex.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Barr View Post
    CMS+B, Fe Gluconate and DTPA Fe at 4:1:1 ratio by volume.

    To prevent mold/bacteria:
    1. Take distilled water and add the antifungal.
    2. Wait five - ten minutes.
    3. Add fertilizer & Top off to 1 liter.




    Last edited by Tug; 11-29-2012 at 01:02 PM.

  2. #2
    You can keep the DIY yeast clean in a couple of ways. One is to install a DIY bubble counter. Essentially you get a second bottle. Fill it with some water maybe half way or so. In the cap drill two holes. One will go to the tank and the other to the yeast bottle. The yeast bottle tube will run into the bubble counter through the cap and needs to have the hose ( or a connected tube ) down near the bottom of the bottle or under the water level. The tube to the tank needs to be well above the water line. CO2 will bubble up through the water. Any yeast which escapes will be trapped by the water and only the CO2 will bubble up out the top and on into the tank. When replacing the yeast solution you can just replace the water in your bubble counter at the same time if it's dirty.

    The other way would be to lower the water level in the yeast bottle. I've done reasonably well with your standard 2 Liter Coke bottle. Throw a couple cups of sugar and yeast into the bottle and make sure it is filled no higher than the top of the label. As long as the tube doesn't hang too far into the bottle you should have sufficient clearance that the yeast bubbling away doesn't make it high enough to enter the tube. This is probably the simplest of the two methods but won't do anything to stop yeast if it gets high enough. The other method will filter it out.

    -
    S

  3. #3
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    Arbitrary recollections - plant nutrition and causal effect.

    Nutrient reactions
    in accordance with Liebig's law of minimum.
    "When two or more factors limit growth, addition of just one will have little effect. The provision of both will have a much greater influence"
    - WIKI

    Marginally low in a number of nutrients, one unavailable nutrient limits overall growth, over time.
    Increase supply of that limiting nutrient, even slightly, increasing the demand for nutrients and another nutrient, the next unavailable, becomes limiting.


    Macro Nutrients

    C, H, O, N, P, K, S, Ca and Mg

    Mobile or non mobile elements.
    Mobile nutrients can be reclaimed from old leaves and used to produce new growth.
    Nonmobile nutrients can not and nutrient deficiencies show up in new growth.
    Carbon (Nonmobile)
    CO2 and Light
    35-40 mg/L
    DIY CO2
    Non CO2 methods
    Dissolved organic carbon (DOC).


    After ten days of CO2 supplementation there should be a noticeable increase in growth.

    Environments with elevated CO2 will require non-limiting macro-nutrient and trace due to the vigorous nutrient uptake from the plants. Moderately lit aquatic environments with ample CO2 have 4 ~ 5 times greater growth then low or inconstant CO2 levels. Under higher lighting, CO2 is essential or plants quickly becomes CO2 limited, leading to growth deficiencies and unwanted algae.


    Hydrogen
    Hydrogen is necessary for building sugars and building the plant. It is obtained almost entirely from water. Hydrogen ions are imperative for a proton gradient to help drive the electron transport chain in photosynthesis and for respiration.

    Oxygen
    Barr Report Newsletter (BRN) - Oxygen
    ✒ Dissolved Oxygen
    6ppm
    The efficiency of nitrifying bacteria is at it's best when the water is near oxygen saturation and most oxygen concentrations below 3 ppm are not considered healthy. The approximate saturation level for oxygen at 50° F. is 11.5 mg/l; at 70° F., 9 mg/l; and at 90° F., 7.5 mg/l. Impurities added to the water (i.e. salt) or an increase in altitude (above sea level) further decrease these saturation levels.

    Energy from respiration drives metabolic processes. In plants these processes include the absorption of plant nutrients (salts) into roots, transport of potassium (K) into and out of guard cells. Other functions: synthesis of proteins, lipids and structural components of plants such as cellulose and other fibers all require O2. Synthesis of storage compounds in stems, roots and seeds also require O2.

    Nitrogen (very mobile)
    BRN - Nitrogen
    Nitrogen cycle.
    NO3 ≮ 5ppm
    DC Tap water 2ppm
    Fish waist, (ammonia / nitric acid).
    KNO3


    Calcium (Nonmobile)
    Ca++ ≮ 10ppm
    DC Tap water 44ppm
    BRN - Calcium
    Thought to enhance uptake of N-NO3. Calcium deficiency can cause stunting of the terminal buds; developing roots, distorted new growth (twisted, bent, maybe cupped leaves) black spots/white leaf margins and impaired root function. Some sources of calcium are; Gypsum plaster/Plaster of Paris (CaSO4.1/2H2O), calcium sulphate (CaSO4) and Calcium Chloride Dihydrate (CaCl2.2H2O).


    Magnesium (mobile)
    Mg++ ≮ 3
    DC Tap water ~9ppm
    BRN - Magnesium
    Magnesium is the only mineral constituent of the chlorophyll molecule accounting for near 20% of total Mg in plants. Magnesium serves as a structural component necessary for protein synthesis. Most reactions involving phosphate transfer specific to ATP require this element, as well as, the activities of several other enzymes. As an example, insufficient magnesium can restrict RuDP carboxylase and CO2 assimilation. Deficiency symptoms often result in leaf distortion for this reason. Other symptoms include interveinal chlorosis of the lower leaf, in which the veins remain green; advancing to uniform pale yellowing of the leaf, to brown and necrotic.


    GH & KH
    My tap water's total hardness (GPG), 5.3 - 11
    Alkalinity is 37 - 111ppm


    Phosphate (mobile)
    PO4 ≮ 0.4ppm
    DC Tap water ~2ppm
    Fish waist/Fish food
    KH2PO4
    • A useful animal cell buffering agent, a component of DNA, RNA, ATP, phospholipids, bulbs and flowers.
    • GSA, indicates high levels of light, low phosphate and/or low CO2.


    ✒ BRN - Phosphorus

    ✒ False positive for CO2

    ✒ Limiting plant growth


    Potassium (very mobile)
    K+ ≮ 5ppm
    DC Tap water ~3ppm
    K2SO4
    Plants can not use phosphate or nitrate when they don't have potassium available.
    BRN - Potassium


    Sulfate (Moderately mobile)
    SO4
    DC Tap water ~54ppm
    BRN - Sulfur
    Although sulfur is most often regarded as secondary nutrient,
    plant requirements for sulfur are equal to and sometimes exceed those for phosphorus.
    Last edited by Tug; 07-06-2012 at 12:54 PM.

  4. #4
    Get your self some KH2PO4, much easier to work with than figuring out seachem's product. You can reduce your constant measuring with everything if you just make a bottle of macros in DI and dose by ml. I find it offers more accuracy and less work; a tsp measure has a far larger margin of error than a middling scale.

    -Philosophos

  5. #5
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    Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu, B, Ni, Cl and Mo

    Micro Nutrients
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Barr View Post
    Ratios of and in themselves have much less impact and significance....
    Iron (Nonmobile)
    DC Tap water ~0.02ppm
    Fe uptake and active Fe in plants
    BAR - Iron and Manganese.
    Manganese (Nonmobile)
    Do you want more? Wet's "Good Shit".
    DC Tap water ~0.0012ppm
    Zink (mobile)
    DC Tap water ~0.0021ppm
    Copper (Nonmobile)
    ✒ BAR - Copper and Zinc
    DC Tap water ~0.008-0.1ppm
    CSM+B ~0.005ppm
    The LC50 for CuSO4 is around 0.46ppm for cherry shrimp.
    Molybdenum (mobile)
    Mo ≯ 0.01ppm
    DC Tap water 0.001ppm
    BAR - Boron and Molybdenum
    Most molybdenum in plants is concentrated in the enzyme nitrate reductase, essential to inorganic nitrogen assimilation (Reduces NO3 to NO2 and then quickly to NH4 for assimilation into amino acid production) occurring in the envelope of chloroplasts in leaves. As such, deficiency symptoms are very similar to those for nitrogen and potassium deficiency. Molybdenum may also play a part in iron absorption and translocation in plants and increase antioxidant function. Molybdenum deficiencies are rare, in most cases. However, excessive dietary intake of molybdenum results in copper deficiency in some animals.

    DC à la carte:
    pH 7.6 with an Alkalinity of 62ppm as CaCO3
    Cl ~32ppm ❦ Na ~16ppm ❦ Ni ~0.002ppm ❦ Al ~0.049ppm ❦ Iodide ~0.027ppm ❦ B (ND) ❦ Co (ND)
    Nutrient deficiencies - James' Planted Tank
    Mineral Deficiency - Lincoln Taiz and Eduardo Zeiger
    List of Recommended Levels and Parameters - Tom Barr
    Parameters,1996-1997 - Tom Barr
    EI Dosing, or No Need for Test Kits
    Calibrating Test Kits - for Non-Chemists - Hoppy
    Last edited by Tug; 07-04-2012 at 03:24 PM.
    Catch 22, "They have a right to do anything we can’t stop them from doing."

    Roll You're Own:
    KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4, CSM+B, FeDTPA, Fe Gluconate

  6. #6
    I'd not worry much about anything related to K+ and traces.
    Spend your time with light, CO2 etc.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr

  7. #7
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    CO2 is all that is left, but a critical dosing parameter, more so than any other.
    Sicne it is central to plant growth, any limitation of a fert will influence it's uptake and phenotypic growth expression radically. - Tom Barr
    CARBON

    Carbon pathway, why CO2 stability is so important?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Barr View Post
    Many dosing methods suggest that they have some way of solving all your algae issues. Curiously, such methods also fail to address algae growth and causes at the root.

    Plants have a rough time adapting to different CO2 levels, algae do not(they are virtually never limited by CO2). Plants need to make a lot more Rubsico to adjust to lower levels, often several times more(10-20X with CO2 enriched vs no CO2) and it takes time for the plant to make these enzymes.

    Changing CO2 around day to day, hour to hour, week to week the plant struggles and spends more energy adapting to CO2, than with growth, acquiring nutrients, catching light etc. In non CO2 systems, changing water frequently causes a spike in high CO2 week to week etc, done only once every few months is better.

    For CO2 enriched tanks(non limiting CO2 systems), changing water has no such impact. The plants do not need to adapt to CO2 since they have ample CO2 and supply for all conditions.
    Add non-limiting CO2 and the plant's demand for nutrients becomes more vigorous.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Barr View Post
    Put another way; when the plants needs are met and grow well, algae does not.

    "At low light and low CO2 there is not much energy to play around with for up or down-regulation of the pools of Chlorophyll or enzymes. If we then add a little more CO2 to the system the plant can afford to invest less energy and resources in CO2 uptake and that leaves more energy for optimizing the light - more Chlorophyll can be produced without fatal consequences from the energy budget. Hence, we have not raised the light and the plants can now utilize any available light - more efficiently." - Tropica
    Tropica's study on Riccia and the affect of resource availability on growth.

    Diagram courtesy of John LeVasseur

    30-50micromol along the sediment is ample light for ANY species.

    Diagram courtesy of VaughnH/Hoppy


    Diagram courtesy of VaughnH/Hoppy


    The Drop Checker
    http://www.njagc.net/articles/co2dropchecker.htm
    One drop checker is good...
    http://www.barrreport.com/showthread...-bunch-of-fish
    Measuring CO2 Levels
    http://web.archive.org/web/200806101...t_co2chart.htm
    The high light requirement myth
    http://www.barrreport.com/showthread...quirement-myth
    CO2 and Light Stimulate Growth, - Tropica
    http://www.tropica.com/en/tropica-ab...and-light.aspx
    All You Ever Wanted To Know About CO2 But Were Afraid To Ask
    http://aquaticconcepts.thekrib.com/Co2/co2_faq.htm
    Last edited by Tug; 06-13-2012 at 10:06 PM.
    Catch 22, "They have a right to do anything we can’t stop them from doing."

    Roll You're Own:
    KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4, CSM+B, FeDTPA, Fe Gluconate

  8. #8
    I like what you've done with the OP
    - Dan

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