Large tanks > 120 gals, c02, and EI - responses wanted

[Gerryd]

Hi all,

Ceg4048 and I are having some PM discussions on larger tanks (> 120 us gals) and the much larger amounts of c02, EI, flow/current, etc that seems to be needed for our tanks to get optimal growth and no algae as compared to smaller volumes of water.

As an example, I need to dose about 3-4 times the 'normal' recommended EI dosing for a 180 gal tank. My drop checkers are also both yellow, but fish are okay (no gasping, surface activity, etc) and I am still increasing a bit at a time, with better plant growth with each increase.

So, I may be exceeding the RECOMMENDED 30-40 ppm c02 range as well..........

I also have > 2000 gph in water pumps ALONE (outside of the main filter/pump) to help with flow and current.

I would be interested in replies from those with tanks of this size OR LARGER that use pressurized c02 AND EI dosing with the following info, so I can summarize and see if we can glean any tips or general patterns that would help all when dealing with larger tanks.

Pattern recognition is a big part of my career, so am hoping to see something(s) that will help us all.

1. Tank size.
2. Method of c02 injection. External reactor, Mazzei, needle wheel, etc. Bubble rate if possible.
3. Type and duration of lighting. MH, T5, T12, etc. Wpg please.
4. EI dosing numbers and schedule. Daily, 3x a week, etc.
5. Type and size of filter(s). Canisters, hang on, etc.
6. Type and size of any extra water pumps or powerheads for additional flow/current.
7. Overflow boxes or not, as this affects c02 de-gassing.
8. Sump or not, as this affects c02 de-gassing.

I will publish any results that I can come up with.

At the very least, a table of tank sizes and ranges of EI and c02..

Feel free to PM (private message) me with any questions or replies.

Thanks in advance.

[Tom Barr]

Well, you know my 180, I also have a 350 and 1600 to attend to, as well as a 120.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Gerryd]

Hi Tom,

Yes plenty of specs on the 180 lol. I have the links to the Behemoth (is that the 1600) and the 300 somewhere, so I can include your data

What EI are you dosing in the starfire? I never quite saw that specific tsp values?

Do you think this is a worthwhile endeavor?

Thanks,

[JDowns]

1. Tank size.
2. Method of c02 injection. External reactor, Mazzei, needle wheel, etc. Bubble rate if possible.
3. Type and duration of lighting. MH, T5, T12, etc. Wpg please.
4. EI dosing numbers and schedule. Daily, 3x a week, etc.
5. Type and size of filter(s). Canisters, hang on, etc.
6. Type and size of any extra water pumps or powerheads for additional flow/current.
7. Overflow boxes or not, as this affects c02 de-gassing.
8. Sump or not, as this affects c02 de-gassing.

1. 150 US Gallons
2. Mist and Reactor / DC to yellow
3. HO T5 240 wpg for 8hrs
4. Daily dosing normal EI with double the P
5. Marineland C360 with Mag 9.5 as a booster. Mag 9.5 with DIY water polisher/reactor. Mag 7 added circulation.
6. No operational overflow or sump

Not sure on bps. I'll have to try hard to count and add up both bubble counters to try and get a good number

[Gerryd]

jdowns,

Marineland C360 with Mag 9.5 as a booster. Mag 9.5 with DIY water polisher/reactor. Mag 7 added circulation.
No operational overflow or sump

So do you have TWO Mag 9.5, one as a booster and one to drive the DIY polisher/reactor, or just the one that does both?

Mist and Reactor

What type/size of reactor and how do you mist?

Would love to see you post a thread in DIY on the polisher/reactor or a link if you have already done so.

All,

The more details the better. I have started a spreadsheet and will be filling in the details, so I can cut and paste most text. Be verbiose!

[JDowns]

There is one 9.5 as a booster and another 9.5 to drive the polisher/reactor.

Polisher/Reactor

Mist is a diffuser under the Mag 7, which spreads the mist around the tank. I'm considering a Mazzei inline with this pump and getting rid of the diffuser.

[JDowns]

I originally wanted the reactor soley to get rid of the bubbles from the mist.

But.....I found as my CO2 improved I had mist coming from the canister filter starting a few hours after lights on like clockwork.

Funny story....I spent days trying to figure out where the air leak was coming from and why I was getting a mist of air coming from the canister outflow. Only to finally notice that it stopped after lights off and only started up once again a few hours after lights on. Gee I wonder where the air is coming from :P

[Gerryd]

I'm considering a Mazzei inline with this pump and getting rid of the diffuser

I would get a 384 or 584 Mazzei and drive it with the Mag 7.....

Gee I wonder where the air is coming from

I've never been good at mysteries, and my brain is occupied elsewhere....

I'm guessing it was from the plants????

[Mooner]

OK, going to step out on a limb here.

I don't necessarily believe this is a large tank only issue. I've also been above the recommended EI for a given tank volume. In fact higher than I actually care to admit. All though I did see incredible growth, and for no scientific reason, the levels where brought back down. Not sure how high I could have gone. Anyway I'm back to double EI, at standard EI things headed south fast. Currently this is stable with good growth at EIx2. Still.... fighting GSA on and off and this is the only algae I've had for a long time. Flow is high in tank as well as high filtration. Lighting is only what may be considered medium though. Concentrating more on CO2, but fish let me know when it's high. Drop checker to yellow.

Things brought to mind and have been written here(Barr Report) before...

1. Inert substrates can require more column ferts than rich substrates
2. The more bio load the more ferts, flow, and CO2 needed.
3. The build up of ferts in a non carbon tank for 8 months with no WC's at low light levels with fantastic results?!?
4. Light is a driver of photosynthesis, and medium lighting is doing well.

All per week in teaspoons and traces accordingly:

Lets see for a 20 gal tank: 1/8 and 1/32 KNO3 and PO4 respectively for a non carbon tank 6-8 months between WC(works very well on 2 tanks)

2-3x more for an Excel tank: 1/4-3/8 KNO3 and 1/16-3/32 PO4 20 gal tank

20-40 gal CO2 high light: 3/4 KNO3 and 3/16 PO4. This about 3x more than Excel and the reasoning behind one 1/3 EI for Excel tanks.

But the non-carbon tank at 6 months of no WC's has had 24 wks x 1/8 = 3 tsp KNO3 and 24 wks x 1/32 = 3/4 tsp PO4. I know this is a long time period, low light and very slow growth. But if build up was a problem wouldn't it manifest it self here? BTW this is a shrimp only tank. This tank rivals my Excel tanks

I also understand that EI is not a hard rule just a starting point. It just seems that on CO2 high(er) light with WC's that we are under where we could be on dosing. I'm not advocating less or more. Just throwing out ideas after a long learning curve and hands on experience.

One last thought, I think there may be some here with big tanks who may already be doing this but are being very quite about it and skirting the issue

Or maybe I'm all wet

[Gerryd]

Hi Chris,

No limb, I posted so as to get MORE points of view.......glad to have you join the discussion......Aren't we all a little wet??? lol

You bring up some excellent points.

I also agree that smaller tanks also have this issue, but since I have a large tank, those are the threads I focus on I just think it is not noticed because 1/8 to 1/4 of a tsp is not that much. When you go from 1.5 tsp to 4 or 5, you sit up and take notice!

I also think that there are many undercover EI overdosers, out there. I see way too many threads from folks with large tanks that dose EI and the assumption (well, mine at least) is that they are dosing at the EI recommendations for that tank, but that is not confirmed.

Glad to hear you admit that you are one of us! Acknowledgement is the first step to a cure lol

I brought this up, because even though I knew technically that I needed X ppm of this, and Y ppm of that, that I was nowhere near it, as I had so many algae and growth issues.

Yet, I knew that many others were doing well on these principles, so it had to be what I was doing.

I was (and am) simply amazed at the nutrient hog that my tank really is

I understand the EI are mins NOW, but didn't really get that earlier....

But if build up was a problem wouldn't it manifest it self here?

That's one of the myths we are fighting, that overdosing of nutrients is 'bad' in and of itself. I think folks here say 30 ppm of N, and think, that based on EI, I should dose X to get that level, not taking into account the things you mention earlier, such as substrate, bio-mass, etc.

The though of doubling or tripling that scares them. I think the more experienced folks do it quietly and just don't even think of it anymore, as things are going well for them, and they are not constantly changing things.

I would still like to gather this data, as it could prove to be useful in a chart form in the future.

Perhaps, I could include anyone with a tank < 120 gals that is dosing > 2-3X EI?