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Thread: Want more accuracy? Want daily PMDD style EI dosing?

  1. #1

    Want more accuracy? Want daily PMDD style EI dosing?

    EI was developed mainly in response to folks that had no test kits that lived in 3rd world countries and for lazy/cheap folks.

    Some folks like dosing daily, when they feed their fish.
    Some forget to dose 2-3x a week(uhhh was it on Tues or Wed I last dosed the traces?? ahhh......????.), so a daily routine works better for their habits.

    Some have a tiny tank and want more consist ppms in their dosing than 1/64 th of a teaspoon can afford. Whatever your reasons, this is just an example. If you have high PO4 in the tap, add less KH2PO4, good GH, skip the GH booster etc.
    If you have high NO3 in the tap water, skip the KNO3, use K2SO4 in place of it.
    This is an example of EI for a 12 week supply for a 20 gallon tank for those with teaspoon aversion.

    To 1 liter of DI water add:

    60 grams KNO3
    15 grams of KH2PO4
    25 grams of GH booster(K2SO4 +MgSO4 may be used instead if the GH is high in the tap water)

    Add 12 mls of this solution daily.
    Add TMG at 2.5 mls daily.
    (or you can use a mix of Fe DTPA + CMS+B, at 1:4 ratio and mix 1 table spoon to 1 liter of DI water, add HCL or Excel to prevent fungus etc)

    That's it.

    That's EI without the teaspoons and more accuracy in dosing.
    If you fiddle with daily dosing, you may have a better routine
    and habit. Some are okay with 2-3x a week.

    You can scale this up or down to suit your tank volume, light level etc, make larger batches etc.

    But if you are not and skip dosings etc, then EI may not give the same results using 2-3x a week dosing as daily.

    Thus it is not the method that fails, it's our own habits and routines.
    Still, this gives a PMDD type routine for folks to do. It's richer than PMDD however, but targets the same nutrients, , NO3/PO4/K+/Traces/Ca/Mg

    PMDD uses a similar routine and nutrients, but leaves out PO4.

    That was due to the hypothesis that was falsified later that PO4 limitation controls algae and limits them.
    PO4 can limit CO2 demand indirectly through limiting plant growth strongly however. That dependency led many to believe that PMDD was correct at the time.
    If the CO2 was independent, then adding high PO4 was not able to induce any algae blooms.
    Still, richer dosing, or leaner is up to you. You can add more of one formula or less of another.

    I think it's obvious and logically to start high and reduce the dosing. This way, when the reduced dosing shows poor plant growth, you know it's due to a dosing routine, not indirect effect or co limitations.
    Researches look at limitation in crops this way, they do not limit the plants and first, have a poor sad looking plants and increase the nutrients from there, residual effects on plants would skew the results.
    Whereas with a healthly unlimited plant, there is much higher likelihood of dependency from other factors.

    Teaspoons are easier to explain and most folks do not own a scale etc. Plants are not these sensitive things, nor should your tank be either. While accuracy and equipment is nice, they are far far far....from needed or required for this hobby.
    Plants have a wide range they can adapt and grow well in, thus such accuracy is not critical as some will have you believe.
    Anyone with common sense can see and test that themselves.
    EI nor any method was ever meant to be rigid. You finness and tweak the method/s to suit.
    Often we think what we did is really causing an effect. Often it's just we are paying more attention to the tank.
    That can help any tank as we all know. Experience also plays a large role in successes, watching the tank and doing water changes if something does not seem right and checking CO2 etc, clean filters etc.
    Never wait. Keep on top of things.

    Note, the above is not written in stone, you can modify it, and use less, or more depending on what you'd like to try and most tanks will require less.
    In general; with dosing, start high(safely assume a non limiting value), then slowly and progressively reduce while watching plants carefully for responses.

    UKAPS also has a similar version of this:
    http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/EI.htm

    Note, there are many incarnations on the web, but please bear in mind, things are flexible.
    You can modify them and adjust them.


    If you have a larger tank than 20 gallons, add the ratio more, if less, add the fraction say 1/2 for 10gal/20gal to get the dosing, pretty simple.

    Some references:
    http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/pmdd-tim.html
    The general notion that helped start this DI&Y fert approach on the web from which all others evolved, including EI:
    http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertil...rs-conlin.html

    This approach to algae was not shown to be correct. It focused on algae, not plants, however, it did help plants to grow better, which indirectly mitigates algae issues.
    Also, it should be noted: PMDD used very low light intensity, things have changed a lot in the last 15 years, and with strong limitation of PO4, this is the bottle neck, which means you can have strong reduction in demand of CO2, N, K+ and other nutrients, that become dependent on PO4 limitations.This reduction in CO2 demand led many to assume that limiting PO4 helps resolve BBA algae. However, it's not low PO4 that reduces BBA, it's good stable CO2/light balance.
    These issues with PMDD aside, it did pave the way for more general focus on plant growth and DIY fertilizers which are widely used for water column dosing by at least 90%. EI and adjustments made to PMDD llustrate the fact we do not limit algae, rather, we focus on good conditions for plants.

    EI and this daily method can be used with a macro nutrient rich sediment also, and I encourage the use of ADA aqua soil, or worm castings or soils, wetland clays etc in conjunction with water column dosing.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr

  2. Just be aware of the solubility for the amount of ferts to water. Don't increace the concentration of the ferts much more than what Tom suggested.

    (Store @ 5°C)

    Tom - how a bout adding some HCl (to lower pH) for an antifungal effect?

  3. #3
    how a bout adding some HCl (to lower pH) for an antifungal effect?
    I am not Tom, but I always put some 37% HCl in my stocks. Indeed to keep the fungus away!

    greets,

    yme

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Kent, UK
    Posts
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    I don't know why the HCl addition isn't mentioned more often as I find it makes a big difference. I add 0.5 ml Normal HCl to 250 ml trace solution. The HCl keeps the solution acidic so preventing the chelator from breaking down as quickly and so preventing mould.

    James

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti-Pjerrot View Post
    Just be aware of the solubility for the amount of ferts to water. Don't increace the concentration of the ferts much more than what Tom suggested.

    (Store @ 5°C)

    Tom - how a bout adding some HCl (to lower pH) for an antifungal effect?
    I think this is namely for the traces............and it works well for CMS if you use it.

    Macros really have little issue with fungi.

    PMDD was an all in all concoction.
    However, no PO4, so the Fe-PO4 interaction was never an issue.

    So keeping them apart resolves that for the macros, but not for the traces for the fungi.

    PMDD advice suggestd this a decade ago as a solution.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr

  6. #6
    Also, if you use Tropica etc, there's not a need to add HCL.........

    Regards.

    Tom Barr

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Burlington, NC
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    2,306
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Barr View Post
    ...

    This is an example of EI for a 12 week supply for a 20 gallon tank.

    To 1 liter of DI water add:

    60 grams KNO3
    18 grams of KH2PO4
    25 grams of GH booster

    Add 12 mls daily.
    Add TMG at 2.5 mls daily.

    That's it.

    ...
    Hi Tom

    I have a question about the above dosing amounts of TMG or Tropica's Plant Nutrition liquid . You are recommending dosing 2.5 ml per 20 gallons or 75.7 liters per day. Tropica recommends dosing 5 ml per 50 liters or 13.2 gallons per week.

    Why are you suggesting dosing so much extra TMG? That's a 231% increase over what Tropica recommends.

    This is how I got the 231% increase:
    (2.5 ml ÷ 75.7 liters x 7 days per week) ÷ (5 ml ÷ 50 liters x 1 day per week) x 100 = 231.2%

    Also, the EI dosing of Traces calls for 2 ml 3x per week for 10 to 20 gallon aquariums and for 5 ml 3x per week for 20 to 40 gallon aquariums.

    It's odd that there is such a difference. Is this a typo?

    Thanks

    Left C
    Last edited by Left C; 07-08-2007 at 01:37 AM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    111
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti-Pjerrot View Post
    Just be aware of the solubility for the amount of ferts to water. Don't increace the concentration of the ferts much more than what Tom suggested.

    (Store @ 5°C)
    ??? What does this mean? I just mixed up a 20x dose (for 60-gallons) of KNO3, KH2PO4 and K2SO4 in 500ml of water - I get crystals of something undissolved on the bottom of the bottle - did I perhaps break some rule of solubility?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by dapellegrini View Post
    ??? What does this mean? I just mixed up a 20x dose (for 60-gallons) of KNO3, KH2PO4 and K2SO4 in 500ml of water - I get crystals of something undissolved on the bottom of the bottle - did I perhaps break some rule of solubility?
    At a given temperature there is a limit to how much of anything will remain in solution with water. So, you need to stay under that limit for each of the fertilizers dissolved into your fertilizer cocktail. Since most of the fertilizer is KNO3, that is really the limiting factor. You don't really need the K2SO4, so it might help to omit it.
    Hoppy

  10. #10
    Left C,

    Claus suggested much less due to many folks not using CO2 and having lower lighting in Europe.

    When we add CO2 and 2x as much light, the demand goes up.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr

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