Enzymatic hydrolysis of organic phosphorus w/UGF

[Tom Barr]

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs177-96/fig4.htm

Has a simplified P cycle in a wetland.

A good well cited paper:

http://rd.springer.com/article/10.10...021-001-0032-1

One of Reddy's:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...530932#preview

Ah, here is an open access to the PO4 paper:

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...page&q&f=false

[Tom Barr]

Microbial processes in a macrophyte dominate wetland in subtropics(all things that are important to this discussion):

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bk...=2560&bih=1442

[pejerrey]

. The rhizosphere is a very crowded place and it is said that they can't compete with the microbes from the centers. The oxygen that reaches the -sphere is depleted in great percent in the root zone.

Sorry, I got lost here.
The centers? The -sphere?
Me no entiende.
Lol!

Tom, I'm still reading and chewing all of that.

[client]

centros de la esfera que se casaron con José Armando. Don't expect me to make sense every time. I just have this urge of showing my lateral thinking (which isn't there, obviously) and avoiding repetition of the words. Nobody gets more than this.

[Tom Barr]

Sorry, I got lost here.
The centers? The -sphere?
Me no entiende.
Lol!

Tom, I'm still reading and chewing all of that.

Some key words can help if you are interested in these biogeochemical cycles.
Organic Phosphorus (do not us ephosphate as a search term on google scholar)
SRP is the inorganic fraction that bacteria cleave off, the liable pool so to the speak.
Plant detrital matter is often consider a pool of organic PO4.

We have ample amounts of this in our planted tanks, this alone is a sufficient source for all algae growth to be non limited by PO4.
Microbial biomass, typically might only be 1-3% total biomass as carbon in a planted tank with soil.
But.....it recycled fast.

How fast? Depends on the growth RATE of the plants and the O2. More growth: more supply of carbon and more O2 demand, but the plants also will add more O2 to the sediments and water during the day only.
If we have good filters and plenty of O2 24/7..........then we gain a significant advantage concerning the microbial turn over rates.
Instead of high O2 for say 8 hours...........now we have very high O2 for 8 hours and then high O2 for the other 16 hours.

This may be a reason why Wet/drys are excellent if they are set up correctly as to not degas CO2 much.
Most of Amano's large tanks are all wet/drys. All of my tanks are. I have the O2/CO2 data to support this hypothesis.
Fish breeding and shrimp brood production as well.

[pejerrey]

Client, Tom thanks for the answers.

@Tom, I'm not sure if I'm understanding the wet/dry you are talking about. Is it wet dry filtration right? I had a 250gal setup in my backyard a while ago with crayfish/goldfish and azolla/duckweed growing in top to feed them(I also gave them some food leftovers). It seemed to me like if I had co2 running there I wi loose it all because of the splashing, maybe my wet dry sump set up was different?

Does your kind of wet dry work without splashing or the splashing doesn't release the co2 back into the air?

The reason I kept that set up, was to see if they could survive/breed (goldfish represented carps) without heating thru the winter in Oakland area. I was planing to set up a grey water cleaning/purifier aquaponics with several planted tubs using laundry water. The final stage was going to be that tank and after that to the edible garden. High phosphate water too indeed.. How funny, now that I think about it lol! I had to cancel my project due to budget problems and my landlord's BS. I was using the rhysome collective book Called "toolbox for sustainable city living" as inspiration.

Anyhow, I still got a lot to read from your previous post. Once I've got a clearer idea I will write down here what I understood about the phosphate cycle and then I will ask some questions.

There is a bunch of this wondering that is been applied to my shrimp tanks today but parallel to that is that aquaponics system mentioned where mainly the way water goes from one tub to the next one is thru an undergravel filter. Which makes this whole thing connected to the same project I had long time ago to reuse soapy water from our households to grow composting materials and food.

About the splashing, in an outdoor setup, splashing calls in wildlife that will wanna get your fish/crays. I was thinking to use solar powered pumps to move the water, there is some with a battery reservoir for 60 bucks online... Although most of the movement was going to be created by the laundry (8'high) uplift and gravity.

Sorry, I'm getting out of the topic, but I wanted to give you a glimpse of the stuff I'm thinking and home-researching in the background.

[Tom Barr]

Yes, wet/dry filter.

Enzymes are optimalized by temps and by pH/salts/KH etc and O2 supply obviously.

You get a bell shaped curve overall for them over a range of those parameters assuming non limiting substrate(organic P)
The Wet/dry splashes into the dry section, but it is sealed with duct tape, so no CO2 is lost. Bean animal type overflows minimize CO2 loss at the pre filters, but I do not use them in my home tanks, but they are similar.
The water on the outside the dry section in the open section of the sump needs not to be seal, since it's placid and no different than the tank's surface water as far as CO2 loss.
So it's only where the water comes into the sump that matters.

[pejerrey]

I have a few questions to make it a bit more clear for me to digest.. Thanks.

From phosphorus biochemistry in subtropical ecosystems:

Is "hydro period" referring to floods?

Is there a reading like "electron receptors 101" related to this topics. I couldn't find a short explanation.

Does fire release P in a more "usable" form? Is that why ash is used on crops?

How does ph/KH/temp affect this process? And how does this process affects ph (orthophosphates)?

I almost wanted to jump out of the window when the reading was prohibited at chapter 10.3 "aerobic/anaerobic".... lol!

From "treatment wetlands" (I want this book!)

Does vertical flow (downwards) or transpiration flux kind of resembles the direction of a regular UGF right? Then as the bottom of a tank is a dead end, there can't be much gravitational pull to help this process, then maybe, just maybe can a UGF help? (biased hopeful question)

So, according to what I understood, only roots can use P?

How can I get my hands on Wang and Mitsch (2000) research?, wanna take a look at it...

Thanks in advance!

[Tom Barr]

Yes, the hydro period is when O2 drops and the redox becomes more negative.
Flooding is a more commonly used term.
And "post flooding".

Rice is the model crop used for soils and flooding also.

Yes, burning/fire releases most all nutrients from organic reduced carbon sources by thermal oxidation.
Slash and burn agriculture is based on this idea and most of the Western USA's natural forest are adapted to fire/lightning strikes.

KH likely has some role, not much I would argue until it gets really low. Same with pH, low pH due to tannins can start to inhibit bacteria, species if algae, but diatoms have little trouble.
Downward flux is slow, very slow by comparison to anything we might have.
The closest thing might be a non CO2 soil based tank.

No, while Barko suggest that P is preferred uptake is from the roots, various other researchers(Cedergreen Madsen et al) actually cut the roots off and found that stems and leaves can easily take up P from the water column with no effect/impact of relative rates of growth in any of the 4 submersed species.
Mitsch is a co author of the Wetlands text book used by instructors are most universities on the topic.

I have a copy and so does my significant other for that matter.

[pejerrey]

About PH.

My ph without co2 in my main tank is 6ish and with co2 24/7 is 5.5ish

Is that too low for phosphate process?

Temp is 70f and KH is 0 without co2 with co2 is 1-2.