I couldn't agree more. Also, my kH is 4 degrees.


Made that one too ... now I run 2x54W and it does grow the plants. period. At this point I see no point in using more light (with the species I have).

For the record , this is the trace concentration I have been using:

1 TBSP CSM+B
0.5 TSP 10% Iron Chelate

Mixed in a 500ml bottle.

Then I would dose 6 caps (30ml's) every other day.

---------------------------

Now I will try this:

2TBSP CSM+B in 500ML BOTTLE, 3 CAPS PER DAY

I'm thinking this will give me less iron and more of the other trace minerals. This way I don't run the risk of depriving the plants of anything and end up with bigger problems.

What do you guys think?

Thanks in advance,

What size is your tank?

According to that type of dosing you will be putting in the equivalent of .18 of a tsp per day of Plantex. If it were me I would just dry dose 1/8 tsp per day. But post your tank size and we can figure out how much iron that will be giving you.

hey Carissa,

My tank is 90 gallons.

The ground cover is thick but overall I would say the aquarium only has a moderate level of plants. I say this because there is not a lot of stem plants in my tank.

That is another thing ....

It has been recommended to me (and apparently this advice came from Chuck Gadd originally) to get a good amount of stem plants and grow them. Reason being that they will consume tons of nutrients and help me get some stability. If I do try this it will be after I leave the tank for a few weeks with the new iron & trace dosing strategy.

Thanks,

Hi,
Ok with a 90 gallon tank and with the dosing strategy for Plantex that you are going with now, you will be adding about 0.15 ppm of iron each dose. Recommended dosing is 0.1 - 0.5 so that puts you in the range as far as an individual dose.

But considering the fact that you are adding it every day instead of every other day, you could still end up with overkill. For instance if your plants are slow growers and don't take in much iron in the space of a week, even doing EI with your weekly 50% water changes you could end up with close to 2.0 ppm of iron over time, which is quadruple the higher recommended amount. I think I would cut it back more than that unless you have a very high plant mass or fast growing plants. Plus you will still be working through excess iron that is now in the tank. Maybe you should do a couple of 50% water changes this week without fertilizing any iron and then start dosing Plantex at the amount you said above, but only every other day or every third day and see how things progress. If you see the algae starting to respond, you know that was probably the issue.

I had a 90 gallon tank, I added 2ppm of Fe via TMG, never induced BBA.

It's not Fe, it never was and never will be.

It's CO2.

I've changed every nutrient, light intensity and none ever induced BBA with a stable tank.

I've added too much light, let the tank over grow, other things that reduce CO2, and induced BBA.

If you are Fe limited, and that reduces the CO2 deamnd, then adding Fe can correlate with BBA.

But correlation does not imply cause.............

It's also not just low CO2 either.............at lower light, well adapted low CO2 plants, non CO2 tanks go many years without BBA as well.

If you start doing water changes to these tanks, say 50% weekly, they tend to get BBA.

WC's add CO2 spikes, that confuses the plants, and signals to the BBA spores to germinate.

You cannot limit BBA with PO4 or NO3 or Fe by themselves under controlled CO2/light/other nutrient conditions.

Spores will continue to germinate over 2-3 week's time and conitnue if you do no correct things fast.

Generally, there is a 2-3 week delay between poor conditions and BBA outbreaks.
I've shut off CO2 and mess with the supply and waited, after a week, no real algae response was noted other than slowed or stunted growth.

I noted recently in a small tank the effects of BBA and over grown poorly circulated CO2. Took about 2-3 weeks. Then progressed.
I trimmed the tank, the BBA "new" growth stopped.

CO2 was the same as was the nutrients(water column and sediment are both non limiting and rich).

Light is high.

I've "cured" BBA is a dozen tanks by simply reducing the light intensity.
No other changes where done, this reduces CO2 demand.

CO2 is 45% of the plant biomass, can change the growth rates by 10-24X faster.
It's very important to provide stable CO2.

High, low etc.
The key appears to be stable long term CO2.

Algae: well, a good trim and attacking it and being patinet enough to slowly beat it back and correct the tank over a several week time frame is wiser than the sledge hammer kill it all and clean it up in less than week approach that many seem to try.

In client tanks, 3-4 weeks is typical, I can amplify things and get things done inside 1-3 weeks for most any algae issue.
But plant health/growth take longer to have them looking good etc.

BBA is pretty much CO2 related going back decades now.
Chuck's guide is rather dated and based on some myths.

By focusing on CO2 more, you will learn more about how to grow aquatic plants much better than giving up, going with a more lean limiting approach to work with your inability to control and monitor CO2.

Most everyone has a CO2 issue at some point, being able to spot and resolcve it is wiser than having to redo the entire dosing routine and balming the wrong elements for your failures..........

Some seem to relish that approach however................I spent a few years dealing with BBA myself, but had no web at the time. I knew what to do to get rid of it, but I did not know why and was not sure, today I am and can test and answer that question easily.

There is always some poster with the perpetual BBA issue.
I've had local hobbyists with this as well and resolved it for them.
It has been CO2 related without fail, for myself and everyone I've ever seen to date going back 2 decades now.


Regards,
Tom Barr

Tom,

The bottom line here is ... I still have BBA despite taking your advice.

I have done everything you have ever recommended to me... it doesn't seem to work if I wait one month, 2 weeks etc.....

Why do you repeat yourself more than provide specific "next steps" to take? I can ask this because I am not ignoring you - I am an experienced aquarist, putting in to practice what you recommend.

So, if you are up for it lets get some advice specific to my situation. Here are the facts. I know you like those

1) I am running 2x54W T5 HO bulbs with quality reflectors. Approx 5" from water surface. I have a Giesemann Midday and Giesemann Aquaflora. They are running 6 hours per day.

2) I have an inline CO2 reactor now (have for a week or slightly longer) and I am adding enough CO2 so that my drop checker (with kH 4 reference fluid) is *consistently* the same color of bright yellow. I had been adding CO2 via a ceramic diffuser for MONTHS and maintained a yellow color also. Right now the CO2 is running night and day in order to maintain stability.

3) I have an Eheim Pro 3 electronic (spray bar vertical) pointed at the front glass 1/3rd in from the left side of my 90 gallon. Water flow is higher than the other plant tanks in my city that look much better than mine (needless to say no BBA).

4) I am religious about water changes, trimming the affected areas etc.


What should I do next in order to see positive changes? I am willing to wait weeks to see how the changes play out (and have in the past). I can provide you with pictures if you need to see what is happening.

- Should I take the reflectors off of my lights? (doesn't seem like I am using excessive lighting by any means).

- Should I reduce my photoperiod further?

Maybe you don't give advice this specific... and that is fine too... but like any good aquarist I am going to explore all variables until exhaustion in order to reach the desired end.

Regards,

Hey Media,

Couple of thoughts/questions:

1. You state that you have 'sufficient flow' and that you also use a spraybar.

a. Could you please advise of filter/pump/gph used for your 90g tank?

b. Could the spraybar not be circulating c02 enriched water to all areas of the tank? A spraybar tends to push water across the surface, where Anubias tend to be on the bottom of the tank. Can you re-position your DC by the BBA or other places in the tank to verify >= 30ppm c02 throughout? This will help determine if you indeed have 'suficient flow'.

While you state that your flow is > than your peers, that does not guarantee sufficient flow for your specific setup

2. You state that your DC color is bright yellow and that c02 is run 24/7, but only using 1 wpg for 6 hours and dosing full EI, correct?

This setup seems out of synch to me, where you are providing a lot of c02and nutrients to the plants, but a small amount of light to drive the use of these nutes. Could this be a LIMITING factor in your growth, which then is a contributing factor that allows the BBA to develop? Perhaps a 9-10 hour photoperiod would be better?

3. If I had to assume anything, it is that Tom is correct and to try and approach the issue with a fresh set of eyes. Perhaps speaking to another hobbyist?

There have been many times that I have discovered a solution to a problem simply by explaining the issue, steps taken, etc, to a peer, and the reason comes to me as I am explaining and sometimes almost as soon as they sit down. Just sometimes you can't see something, until the light goes on Plenty of things are 'obvious' later in hindsight.


FYI - I use full EI and 2.5 wpg of 6500k MH in a 180g..... I use a 1800 gph pump to run the tank, so with head height will turn the tank over 6x per hour.......

I hope this helps.

FYI

Sorry about this extra reply as it was a dupe of my original.
Site forced me sign in again to submit the reply, but I was already signed in. Site response time was bad, and when I was finally re-signed in and re-directed, the duplication had already occured.

I just deleted the contents as it was the same.

Just trying to make sense out of the reasoning here so I hope nobody takes offense.

From what I'm reading, Tom is saying that in nearly every situation he's seen, adjusting CO2 to make it higher and/or stable has cured BBA.

But certainly BBA has more requirements for thriving than water and CO2. So could we not flesh out those other requirements and work on those, failing being able to fix CO2? Perhaps the root problem is CO2 or at least the addition of CO2 would rectify whatever is causing the BBA. But if you can't fix the root problem, could you not at least work on the symptoms to find a solution that works for you although not ideal?

I know that low/unstable CO2 in and of itself does not automatically cause BBA. I have three tanks here that can testify to that, I've had every CO2 issue under the sun and back again and cannot trigger BBA. I can add BBA to a non-CO2 tank and it dies. There has to be a reason for that. Something is lacking in my tanks that prevents BBA from thriving. Whatever that something is, doesn't affect my plants. I dose all macros and micros regularly and my plants are thriving for the most part.

The logical conclusion that I have to come to is that BBA will thrive if you have both unstable CO2 AND some other condition that plants evidently don't require. Granted, there are so many variables in one particular tank it may be really hard to figure out. But there has to be something else contributing to it other than CO2.


Now another school of thought would be that some set of conditions occurred to trigger the onset of BBA (CO2?), those conditions have since been rectified, but now that it is established it will take strong measures to wipe it out again. That seems to be the case with most algae, once it's established and you remove the condition that is causing it, you still have to go overboard to eradicate it again.

I suppose it could also be a long standing deficiency of some type....if the plants are weakened over time they become more susceptible to any type of algae, and BBA is what has decided to take hold and it becomes a vicious cycle of BBA killing plants and dying plants feeding BBA.

Or as Gerry mentioned, maybe a circulation issue...so you have CO2 in some parts of the tank and not in others.