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  • #16
    AS and earthworm castings are not same thing. One is mineral soil, that is nutrients that are directly availble to plants, the second, is organic soil. It is like having a deposit of resources that will make your soil last much longer than any mineralized soil, it will provide both nitrogen and phosphate and will be an excellent bed for bacteria in the start. AS will need few months so that some organics deposit in it and make it a really alive soil.

    Here, earthworm castings cost less than any soil you can afford, furthermore, if you have a castings reactor for recycling, you can even make it yourself :-)

    But, you must not use them as a sole soil, rather mixed and prepared as Tom said.

    My expierience starts bad, as I have a BGA (cyano) issue now, just 24h after immersion. My mistake as I didn't clean the organic mess on soil surface before submerging
    Aquatic Natur Cocoon 7: 11gal, dry start success / low light / CO2
    >>Follow it here<<

    Aquatlantis Evasion 120: Stopped ---> Malawi setup = No Plants

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    • #17
      FYI, it is not my method honestly, it was rather popular in Brazil for a few years with some nice aquascapes coming back in the 2002-2003 range I think using the method + good CO2/lots of traces.

      A few folks in the local club tried it with good results.

      I've not read any negative reports if you followed the protocol and planted and did not move things around much or carelessly.

      BGA is fairly common in the initial stages, EM or a BO + KNO3 takes care of that.

      Regards,
      Tom Barr
      www.BarrReport.com

      Comment


      • #18
        Adding WC does not replace ADA AS however, nor does it work like ADA AS.
        Adding it will not hurt and is good/will show an improvement independent of other factors say compared sand/flourite etc, whereas adding 5 different macro based products, say peat, soil, Clays etc in a mix vs say soil alone will be much less noticeable.

        You add 2 or more things that do similar things for the most part or things that are better suited to the water column.

        I think many like sediments because they think and have been BS'ed into the belief that excess nutrients, not light/CO2 balance is the cause of their algae issues.

        This applied to virtually all who market and promote these types of products and methods. I find that curious even in face of the 15 years of evidence to the contrary. I can see why if you are business and want to sell the products.

        But hobbyists and DIY folks?
        What excuse do they have?

        If you can know and test both locations, then you know much more.
        It's the old only looking at one side of the coin issue. These folks cannot escape that issue in their argument and result suggest it has nothing to do with it.



        Regards,
        Tom Barr
        www.BarrReport.com

        Comment


        • #19
          I think many like sediments because they think and have been BS'ed into the belief that excess nutrients, not light/CO2 balance is the cause of their algae issues.
          If you think I'm asking about rich sediment because I start to believe in ‘too much nutrients
          (especially in water column) causes algae’. Please don't. In the previous version of my tank,
          it was very lean but still got algae. And I saw folks trying to control algae by reducing nutrients.
          The result was there was still algae, but this time with worse looking plants. I've never
          seen a case that reducing nutrient could stop algae in a tank that already has algae.
          But people (here, in local forums) still say the same old song like broken record.

          Comment


          • #20
            Adding WC does not replace ADA AS however, nor does it work like ADA AS.
            Adding it will not hurt and is good/will show an improvement independent of other factors say compared sand/flourite etc, whereas adding 5 different macro based products, say peat, soil, Clays etc in a mix vs say soil alone will be much less noticeable.

            You add 2 or more things that do similar things for the most part or things that are better suited to the water column.
            I asked that because I just want to buy a 3 kg bag of AS, crush it (the grain isn't
            that hard, isn't it). And use in the same fashion of MTS or worm castings. Call me
            not dedicating enough, but if I don't have to go out and dig wet land soil or buy worm
            castings then rinse it, mineralize it, etc. Then good. I'm not expect super rich substrate,
            just wanting something in the gravel that is better than rood tabs.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by nipat View Post
              If you think I'm asking about rich sediment because I start to believe in ‘too much nutrients
              (especially in water column) causes algae’. Please don't. In the previous version of my tank,
              it was very lean but still got algae. And I saw folks trying to control algae by reducing nutrients.
              The result was there was still algae, but this time with worse looking plants. I've never
              seen a case that reducing nutrient could stop algae in a tank that already has algae.
              But people (here, in local forums) still say the same old song like broken record.
              Nipat
              I'm talking outside of the realm of this web site and the general hobby.
              Not you.

              If I go after someone, I'll be very direct, there's no question. Moderator related infractions. Sometimes folks feel I'm directing something at them, but nope.
              Just nagging in general like some old codger on a porch about the state of things in the aquatic world.:gw

              Regards,
              Tom Barr
              www.BarrReport.com

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by nipat View Post
                I asked that because I just want to buy a 3 kg bag of AS, crush it (the grain isn't
                that hard, isn't it). And use in the same fashion of MTS or worm castings. Call me
                not dedicating enough, but if I don't have to go out and dig wet land soil or buy worm
                castings then rinse it, mineralize it, etc. Then good. I'm not expect super rich substrate,
                just wanting something in the gravel that is better than rood tabs.
                Yes, that should work fine.
                Many live in high urban areas where they would not trust/have the wetland soils etc. Or cannot boil Worm castings due to family mutiny. There are many reasons/excuses, trade offs for various sediment types, and water column dosing management.

                I think we have a much higher chance % at success when we use several locations, methods together with a wider group of hobbyists.

                So rather than one or the other, learn both.
                Same for non CO2 or CO2 enrichment.
                High and low light.
                Rich ppm's or lean ppm's.

                Then you can see what effects these have, both for yourself and your habits, as well as those of others, you need to compare the successes, not the failures so much with each method.

                The successful application of a certain method, location etc is evidence that something about that method/location etc can work well, how much trade off, how sensitive the other parameters are to management are key follow up questions.

                Still, if there's a success, that's evidence enough for me.
                Failures just means perhaps it was the method, or perhaps it was some other factor that person did not consider. You cannot say much there. You can when you get a nice reference example.

                That falsifies the claims that excess ppm's or lean water column ppm's or sediments etc cause algae or cannot do well with growing plants. Then you go back and look at why someone might have failed, where others did not fail.

                You know it's not due to water column ppm's however at that point.
                That is particularly useful.

                BTW, you can limit water column ppm's say PO4..and reduce CO2 as PO4 can become more limiting than CO2, thereby indirectly affecting CO2= less CO2 demand=> non limiting CO2=> reduced, or removing algae that way.

                If the CO2 was independent, well..........then you do not see that. If it was not independent, then there's a good chance of it. It's still a CO2 management issue, not limiting PO4.

                Some try this and see a reduction in algae, then think there's something to it.
                Some see good growth say at 5ppm NO3/0.5ppm PO4 and think that's evidence those are the best ppm's. It does not explain how the other observations(not just their own!!!) exist without issues they claim affect the results.

                Poor testing, poor test kit resolution etc, there are many ways to make mistakes here.

                And many of us make them a few times before understanding.

                As far as ADA AS, you can ball it up, or semi compact it, add that under there.
                If you add some KNO3 and other ferts, you will still get good results over long time frames.

                Adding WC's to the ADA AS is not needed I think.
                Will not hurt though.


                Regards,
                Tom Barr
                www.BarrReport.com

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Tom Barr View Post
                  BGA is fairly common in the initial stages, EM or a BO + KNO3 takes care of that.

                  Regards,
                  Tom Barr
                  Thank you for reassuring me,
                  But what is "EM"?

                  Also, BGA in my case is probably due to teh fact I didn't remove the organics layer formed on substrate surface after 4 months of emersed setup in a high humidity environement. Moved to 6h/day and 1d/2 WC + vacuming and debris cleaning
                  Aquatic Natur Cocoon 7: 11gal, dry start success / low light / CO2
                  >>Follow it here<<

                  Aquatlantis Evasion 120: Stopped ---> Malawi setup = No Plants

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    In that context I believe Tom is referring to:

                    EM = Erythromycin
                    BO = Blackout

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by JDowns View Post
                      In that context I believe Tom is referring to:

                      EM = Erythromycin
                      BO = Blackout
                      Yes, thanks for clarifying my short hand laziness.

                      Regards,
                      Tom Barr
                      www.BarrReport.com

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Thanks,

                        For now, I chose the natural way: targetting the cause:

                        - 80% WC 1d/2
                        - massive removing of decaying organic matter on surface from emersed phase
                        - manual removal of BGA spots and syphoning soil
                        - Half light: 11w instead of 22W
                        - ferts

                        It seems under control now and BGA slowed its spreading as it has no organic matter to hang on
                        Aquatic Natur Cocoon 7: 11gal, dry start success / low light / CO2
                        >>Follow it here<<

                        Aquatlantis Evasion 120: Stopped ---> Malawi setup = No Plants

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          While this will help, you often need to wipe the BGA or GW, or whatever species you have out completely, or stress it a great deal, before the normal root causes will take effect.

                          So the Blackout and the EM will help to restore the general issue.


                          Regards,
                          Tom Barr
                          www.BarrReport.com

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Bad news,

                            i really hope to avoid EM as it will destroy bacterial colony I put 4.5 months building to avoid algae. Maybe I'll rather put it back emersed for 1-2 weeks if at the end of the week BGA keeps growing agressively.

                            By the way, the java moss I put in the aquarium on the roots when I immersed it was covered with green algae filaments. The green algae disappeared from the moss in 48h. So yes, this method looks like it's working for green algae.

                            I have brown algae deposits on plants, though. Those algae that are easily removed and typical of a new aquarium

                            I'll need some more weeks to be able to say if this method really avoided any algae outbreak especially green filaments and if the other algae that appear are more self limited after an emersed phase
                            Aquatic Natur Cocoon 7: 11gal, dry start success / low light / CO2
                            >>Follow it here<<

                            Aquatlantis Evasion 120: Stopped ---> Malawi setup = No Plants

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              EM does nothing to the filter bacteria or any significant impact in the plant aquarium.

                              It only targets the gram positive species.
                              Blackout is the alternative and is not an issue if you cannot get EM, as many places have laws against over the counter sale of antibiotics.


                              Regards,
                              Tom Barr
                              www.BarrReport.com

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Thank you again for those precisions,

                                I noticed today an extension of BGA over healthy plants and stones now. Clearly, WC, syphoning, manual removal, 50% light reduction and only 6h light period doesn't affect it, as you warned

                                I opted for Clarithromycine instead of Erythromycine, as I had some laying around. I used a 2-3mg/L dosing on day 1.

                                What regimen do you suggest next? 2-3mg/L added on a daily basis for 3-5 days? No WC during treatment? Any precisions Tom please?
                                Aquatic Natur Cocoon 7: 11gal, dry start success / low light / CO2
                                >>Follow it here<<

                                Aquatlantis Evasion 120: Stopped ---> Malawi setup = No Plants

                                Comment

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