Floutire Black Sand Cap

[Dutch]

This may have been covered before, apologies if so.

I'm redoing my tank and going with a DSM with a soil/clay MTS method (without the MTS).

From what I've read, the soil will mineralize during the DSM phase so I can skip the whole rinse and dry steps?

My question is for those of you who have used the Flourite Black Sand for capping is does this stuff blow around or is it heavy enough that the water flow does not disturb it? The problem I've had in the past is with substrate that is too light and gets disturbed easily by the water flow from the powerheads, etc.

I want to grow out an emersed hc carpet, and was wondering if I should use the Flourite black, or the Flourite Black sand. The sand seems to be the better for the fine roots the hc has.

I'd like some feedback before I go and spend $200 on substrate.

Your comments and feedback are very much appreciated.

 

[mike]

Hi Dutch,

I'm quite new at this and can't really comment but I'm very interested in your substraight, as I'm also in the process of setting up a 125G tank. I was also going to go with a DSM using 2 parts Flourite Black sand to 1 part Black Flourite but I was not sure what to put as the first layer of the substraight. How does the soil/clay work, is this what you’re talking about http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/substrate/152027-how-mineralized-soil-substrate-mts-aaron.html

I was also thinking of putting some Scotts Osmocote (http://www.scotts.com/smg/templates/index.jsp?pageUrl=osmocoteLanding&itemId=cat50020&id=cat50020), is it of any use?

I look forward to seeing your progress.

Mike

 

[Dutch]

Yes that link to the MTS article will start you in the right direction. After reading for the last few days on various forums, it appears that if you use the DSM (dry start method) with the MTS substrate, you do not have to rinse and wash it as the 8 week+ grow out period of DSM will mineralize the soil.

I'll let others chime in here that have more experience on this method.

As far as the Osmocote, you do not want the regular one, but the Osmocote Plus. I've read pros and cons on this, and again will let others chime in that have more experience using it.

For my tank, I'm going to throw down some dolomite and potash before dumping in the MTS mud mixture.

 

[Dutch]

On another note, how many people out there have used the Black Diamond Blasting sand as a cap?
I know this stuff has little or no CEC value as compared to the Flourite black sand. How important is it to have a cap that has CEC? Will this make a difference in carpet plants?
Since I plan on dosing EI with this tank in addition to the MTS factor, do I even need to worry over the CEC content of the cap?

And as my question on the Flourite sand, does the blasting sand blow around alot under decent water flow levels?

Thanks

 

[Jim Miller]

FBS is nice and fine and I like it much better for holding anything down. As for DSM vs MTS: my opinion is that they are equivalent but with MTS approach accelerating what will occur naturally in the DSM.

One caution is that I would wait 6 months or so before adding shrimp. They seem not to like the soil until it has well aged. You can add a few inexpensive "canary" shrimp I suppose to test the suitability.

good luck

jim

 

[Gilles]

I have used worm castings topped with Flourite Black Sand (without cover inbetween). Over the period of time the WC came through and the tank became very cloudy each time i replanted. Sure the black sand looks nice, but for (i think) almost the same amount of $$$ you have ADA AS, to which i switched 3 months ago. If you don't rinse the flourite black sand it gives off a light grey-ish cloud and leaves a fog like cloud on the substrate.

I have used a fine meshed fish net for rinsing so all the small stuff (e.g. dust, and 1/8 the size of a sand grain) fell out. I kept on rinsing until that was gone. My guess is that it reduced the bag weight by almost 10% (for each bag) . So if you are going to buy Flourite Black Sand, over-buy it since you will lose some of it by rinsing. And if you rinse as good as i did, it won't be affected by the flow of an MP40 on a 700 liter tank.

Point is, after 3 months of ADA AS, i am very happy i switched, but my problems where mainly caused by WC i think

 

[Dutch]

I would love to go with ADA AS, the problem is that with this size tank (155 gal), the substrate and shipping would be ~$500.
Trying to go a cheaper route, hence the DSM/MTS and cap.

I've read that if you place a mesh material over the MTS before capping that it helps keep the soil in place?

Curious, what's the life span of ADA AS? Does it break down over time and need replaced, or is it good for years and years?

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Gilles]

Your welcome. I have not that much experience with ADA AS, but Tom has, and he claims that it goes for years. Where are you from? I only have Ada AS and yes it costed me also >300$ but thesame went for Flourite where i am at.

 

[Dutch]

Live in Kansas, the shipping on that stuff is well over $100.

The flourite I can get for around $19/ 15 pd bag from DrFostersSmith with free shipping.

I'm actually toying around with the idea of using the Black Diamond Blasting media and as I can get 150 pounds for $21. Seems a lot of people have used this.

 

[Gerryd]

Hi Dutch,

Are you certain about the cost of the ADA or how much you may need?

I ask as I used iirc 7 bags when Tom scaped my 220 with dims of 72x36, so was a large area. However, the depth was no more than 2"...I purchased 5 cases and was >500 with shipping iirc. So,how much do you think you need? One case = 3 x 9 liter bags.

I used < 2 bags to scape my 57gal but that is also fairly shallow depth..

I have used black flourite (not the sand) and liked it very much. I agree that rinsing it more is better. It does have dust and forms a cloud, but will settle fairly quickly. If you rinse a little more it will be worth the effort.

 

[Dutch]

Hi Gerry,

hmm, I may have calculated too much then. If you can get by with a depth of 2" then I would need what, 10-11 bags of the 9L? Dimensions of the tank are 60X24 (roughly).
With shipping that's about $410.00 - 440.00 with shipping making up a third of that cost.
Hence my thoughts about using soil/clay with a cap.

I do appreciate your feedback

Thank you.

 

[1077]

Just re-did substrate in 80 gallon low tech tank as follows.
Removed approx four inches of substrate that was 80 lbs of eco- complete,capped with fine gravel. I left quite a bit of mulm in the botom before adding plain ,unscented cat litter that I got from Walmart to a depth of about one centimeter.Bag says it is natural clay product.
On top of this,I added half a 1.5 cubic yard bag of Miracle Grow Organic choice potting mix, also from Walmart.
I then capped this with approx 3to 4 centimeter's of Black diamond Blasting media which even though I did not rinse it,, clouded the water for only a few hours before clearing the next morning (bag claims product is washed but you may wish to rinse anyhoo?)
I saw that there were two grain sizes for the black diamond blasting media, 20/40 and 30/60 and I chose the 20/40 which is what I saw mentioned on other forums by those who have used this product.
Is about the same grain size as flourite black sand and WAY cheaper.
Product also is said to contain calcium,magnesium,and Iron but perhaps in small amounts ?
I decided to give it a go and have yet to return any fishes to the tank but did re-plant all the plant's in this substrate and shall see what the result's are.
Am in hopes that the cat litter will help hold nutrient's from miracle grow and soon to be fish waste,fish food, snail poop(MTS),etc and I very much like the black cap with Blasting media.

 

[Dutch]

Thanks 1077, I got 3 bags of the 20/40 from tractor supply, boy that stuff is dense (heavy).
Going to give that a try

 

[Dutch]

Ok, so I'm still undecided on my soil cap. I have a ton of the aquariumplants.com substrate that has a much better CEC over the non-existing CEC content of the black diamond blasting compound. The problem is the stuff is so light.

Will this hold the soil down, or am I asking for trouble?

 

[Dutch]

Ok scratch that last post, that stuff from aquariumplants.com will not hold the soil down. way too light.

 

[mike]

Hi Dutch,

So what was your final choice for the cap? Have you started the whole DSM with the MTS? I'm interested in how this will go, I'll be starting my 120G in about 1 month and will be doing a DSM also, and most likely the MTS.

Mike

 

[Dutch]

i ended up going with the Black Diamond Blasting compound since I am going to be dosing EI as well. Covered the mud nicely, and as Tom stated the capillary action of the small grain size pulls the water up nicely.

 

[mike]

It looks like it's coming together nicely. I was thinking of going with Black Diamand also but I'm having a hard time finding it in Canada. I'm also having a hard time finding some nice drift wood. Tom has some nice pieces but I'm pretty sure shipping is in the $100 range, which is way to much for me. I can get some at the LFS but they don't have much character, yours look nice.

Mike

 

[PapstBenediktXVI]

Hello there,

quick question: do you know what kind of wood this is? looks much different than the logs you usually see in the shops....

cheers
papst

 

[Dutch]

That would be Tom's Manzanita, you can find it in the trade forum.
Ty for the feedback, planting begins today!