Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Is Eco-Complete inert substrate? How come?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Is Eco-Complete inert substrate? How come?

    I've been paying a lot of money getting Eco-Complete locally. Keep in mind I'm used to pay more than usual cost of fishkeeping items since I live in a third world country (Dominican Republic). To give you an idea, a 20lbs bag of Eco-Complete cost me three times as much its on-line regular price. I usually add new Eco-Complete at the two year mark after it was introduced into a particular tank.

    I joined this site in August 2008 and became a lifetime member a month ago. I found a statement by Tom Barr that simply put is telling me I've been paying a lot of money for inert substrate.

    Tom's words "EC is inert hard sediment" Please see his reply in this threadhttp://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/6262-When-to-change-ECO-Complete-planted-Substrate

    I feel like an idiot if that happens to be true. How come they advertise this substrate as nutrient rich if indeed it is not?

    Pepetj
    Santo Domingo

  • #2
    Ask them, not me

    ADA Aqua Soil has nutrients, etc, and cost about the same.
    You can also do mineralization of clay loam soils you should be able to find locally, and do a layer of that + sand capping.
    Some used worm castings for the sediment base layer etc, search here and you should be able to locate the threads.

    I'm afraid you did pay a lot for inert sediment.
    Flourite is the same.

    Has the chemicals, but they are not biologically available in a meaningful way. Eg SiO2 is glass, but hardly a good source for O2.
    But you could say glass has Oxygen in it.



    Regards,
    Tom Barr
    www.BarrReport.com

    Comment


    • #3
      AZOO Plant Grower Bed and EC, are they the same type of product?
      :encouragement: Roll You're Own: Greater Washington Aquatic Plant Association
      Mixed with a sound of water's murmuring
      a sensitive plant in a garden growing.

      Comment


      • #4
        [QUOTE=Tom Barr;58845]Ask them, not me

        ADA Aqua Soil has nutrients, etc, and cost about the same.
        You can also do mineralization of clay loam soils you should be able to find locally, and do a layer of that + sand capping.
        Some used worm castings for the sediment base layer etc, search here and you should be able to locate the threads.

        I'm afraid you did pay a lot for inert sediment.
        Flourite is the same.

        Has the chemicals, but they are not biologically available in a meaningful way. Eg SiO2 is glass, but hardly a good source for O2.
        But you could say glass has Oxygen in it.



        Regards,
        Tom Barr[/QUOTE

        Tom, please define meaningful when you say the nutrient's,chemicals, are not available biologically in any meaningful way from product, Eco- complete.
        I have heard other's express that contents may not be present at levels needed but it is unclear to me what or who determines at what those levels may be. Other's appear quite happy with the initial performance (myself included) of both Flourite and Eco -complete.
        I understand that trace minerals while not needed at same rate as macro nutrients, are still of benefit to plant's and that product Eco -complete contains mostly micro nutrient's and small amounts of macro nutrient's but it would seem that the company is flat out lying if as you say whatever content Macros.,micros, is not of any measurable benefit as opposed to plain pea gravel or sand for instance.
        Many thanks in advance for clarifying your posistion as to the usefulness or lack thereof of said products Eco -complete,Flourite.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi.

          I use black flourite for several reasons:

          1) It is attractive
          2) It is easy to use and does not cloud the water.
          3) It holds the plants well and is easy to plant in.

          I use EI to make up for any lack of nutrients.
          Thanks,

          Gerry.

          'When something's not right, it's wrong'. Bob Dylan

          Current 220 scape

          http://www.barrreport.com/showthread...3219-220-video

          Comment


          • #6
            I have Eco Complete in my own tank,.. and a few weeks ago I decided to try putting in a root tab just in-case I'm not getting all the nutrients I needed for whatever reason from my EI and Substrate. I can not believe the massive increase in growth rate for my crypts especially,.. so much so in fact that I put even more down there for them, and these are not even particularly good root tabs (flourish something or other).

            It would seem that this plant prefers feeding from it's roots rather than the water,.. it would further seem that my Eco Complete was starving them.

            Whiskey
            When you come across a swordsman, show him your sword.
            Do not give your poem, to a man who is not a poet.

            Comment


            • #7
              I had always assumed when people said EC was inert, they simply meant it did not alter water chemistry, whereas, something like ADA AS alters pH, etc. How is EC's makeup different from ADA AS such that plants cannot make use of the nutrients?

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm thinking of solving this issue by mixing top soil substitute. It's supposed to be toxic free, mineralized, and enriched through organic means (earthworms' byproduct maybe?). I'm setting a 30"L x 18"W tank (Marineland 56gal column) for my wife. It is my first aquascape attempt from the start.

                Ignorance may be a bliss but to some but I rather know that I know the facts of what I'm dealing with. My frequent failures with Eleocharis sp are easy to understand now. Let's see how I do with really enriched substrate now. Since I now know EC is inert I see no problem mixing it with inert black gravel (cheaper yet aquarium safe). I like the looks of EC and money isn't exactly going to stop me from this. How can I put value on any of my tanks? Coming home after a hard day at office dealing with people's personal issues (I'm a Clinical Psychologist in private practice) to the silence of my planted tanks in the quiet of the night...

                Pepetj
                Santo Domingo

                Comment


                • #9
                  [QUOTE=1077;58852]
                  Originally posted by Tom Barr View Post
                  Ask them, not me

                  ADA Aqua Soil has nutrients, etc, and cost about the same.
                  You can also do mineralization of clay loam soils you should be able to find locally, and do a layer of that + sand capping.
                  Some used worm castings for the sediment base layer etc, search here and you should be able to locate the threads.

                  I'm afraid you did pay a lot for inert sediment.
                  Flourite is the same.

                  Has the chemicals, but they are not biologically available in a meaningful way. Eg SiO2 is glass, but hardly a good source for O2.
                  But you could say glass has Oxygen in it.



                  Regards,
                  Tom Barr[/QUOTE

                  Tom, please define meaningful when you say the nutrient's,chemicals, are not available biologically in any meaningful way from product, Eco- complete.
                  I have heard other's express that contents may not be present at levels needed but it is unclear to me what or who determines at what those levels may be. Other's appear quite happy with the initial performance (myself included) of both Flourite and Eco -complete.
                  I understand that trace minerals while not needed at same rate as macro nutrients, are still of benefit to plant's and that product Eco -complete contains mostly micro nutrient's and small amounts of macro nutrient's but it would seem that the company is flat out lying if as you say whatever content Macros.,micros, is not of any measurable benefit as opposed to plain pea gravel or sand for instance.
                  Many thanks in advance for clarifying your posistion as to the usefulness or lack thereof of said products Eco -complete,Flourite.
                  Easy, you add flourite or EC and nothing else.
                  No water column ferts, see if you can grow plants.

                  Sand also "grows" plants too BTW under your definition.

                  There's more surface area, maybe a little CEC, but we already know the CEC for Flourite and things like SMS etc, which has a higher content than either EC or Flourite.
                  But there's no N or P, not much really to add to the nutrient demands of plants.

                  All you need to do is look it up.
                  http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertil...ate-jamie.html

                  Cat litter does pretty well.

                  Chemical ananlysis vs feertility are very different things.

                  In answer to your questions as far as who determines what ois said, no one really.
                  No one polices these companies, they can say anything to sell the products for the most part.

                  Look no further than to diet pills and the Billion's $$$ spent there and hardly any truth in labeling.
                  If it kills people, FDA says it's bad for you, they might get involved, otherwise, it's pretty much hands off.

                  Ask Amano what's in power sand sometime, hehe.

                  If you are curious, do what Jamie did, or myself.
                  Test it and then you'll know.




                  Regards,
                  Tom Barr
                  www.BarrReport.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Whiskey View Post
                    I have Eco Complete in my own tank,.. and a few weeks ago I decided to try putting in a root tab just in-case I'm not getting all the nutrients I needed for whatever reason from my EI and Substrate. I can not believe the massive increase in growth rate for my crypts especially,.. so much so in fact that I put even more down there for them, and these are not even particularly good root tabs (flourish something or other).

                    It would seem that this plant prefers feeding from it's roots rather than the water,.. it would further seem that my Eco Complete was starving them.

                    Whiskey
                    This is but one test you can do to see and answer the question.


                    Regards,
                    Tom Barr
                    www.BarrReport.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      A simple test is to do lots of large water changes and use pots with various types of sediments and then test that.

                      ADA did this and compared the rate of growth of ADA AS with that of plain sand.
                      One has nutrients, the other does not.

                      I've done this myself quite a few times, we have continuous drip vaults at the lab.
                      So the only source is some from the sediments, pots cannot leach out ferts into the water column that may influence or confound other pots.

                      Any of the pots with N/P etc, will have a much high growth rate obviously, than plain sands etc. Flourite and EC are useful I think since they have large surface area for bacteria and that might aid plants indirectly, but those bacteria cannot really get at much of the nutrients/elements in those rock grains.

                      Regards,
                      Tom Barr
                      www.BarrReport.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by pepetj View Post
                        I'm thinking of solving this issue by mixing top soil substitute. It's supposed to be toxic free, mineralized, and enriched through organic means (earthworms' byproduct maybe?). I'm setting a 30"L x 18"W tank (Marineland 56gal column) for my wife. It is my first aquascape attempt from the start.

                        Ignorance may be a bliss but to some but I rather know that I know the facts of what I'm dealing with. My frequent failures with Eleocharis sp are easy to understand now. Let's see how I do with really enriched substrate now. Since I now know EC is inert I see no problem mixing it with inert black gravel (cheaper yet aquarium safe). I like the looks of EC and money isn't exactly going to stop me from this. How can I put value on any of my tanks? Coming home after a hard day at office dealing with people's personal issues (I'm a Clinical Psychologist in private practice) to the silence of my planted tanks in the quiet of the night...

                        Pepetj
                        Santo Domingo
                        Well, you can go either way, or both ways actually(preferred IMO/IME),
                        You should easily be able to grow hair grass in flourite/plain sand or soil or ADA AS etc.
                        I've done every one of those sediment types.

                        Nutrients can be supplied via the water column eg: EI dosing.
                        They can be supplied via fish waste as well.
                        They can be added via the sediment usign ADA AS or mineralized sediments, boiled for 10 min etc, or shallow pan or water for 2-4 weeks prior to use.
                        ADA AS takes about 4 weeks worth of water changes before you can put the fish in, so the soils etc can all be done that way if you prefer, or do the Dry Start methods, then the plants and roots are already estbalished and you have your mineralization done as well.

                        But I think it's wise to use both locations, the sediment and the water coilumn as a source for all the nutrients, not just one.
                        They compliment eachother and the trade off each has. You can hop around with one leg, but getting around is much easier if you use both, sort of the same idea here.

                        EC is nice since you do not need to wash it.
                        Some like the look of it.
                        I like Black flourite sand.

                        Here's some Hair grass in my tank using Flourite and EI and low light:



                        I have grown it in plain sand very densely.
                        I've also grown it very dense in ADA AS at home and delta clay mud at the lab.

                        No issues growing this plant at all.

                        Regards,
                        Tom Barr
                        www.BarrReport.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I can grow this plant in either sediment type, in this case, it's in a sediment with ferts, lots of them, but over time the muds/clays, soils etc are reduced in Nitrogen, so that needs added from some other source or you end up replacing the seiment perhaps yearly to get the same rate of growth.



                          I've aggressively pruned it and you can see the cut line where I hacked it back.

                          Regards,
                          Tom Barr
                          www.BarrReport.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Since ADA AS will eventually be depleted, isn't it a viable option to choose a substrate that is more aesthetically pleasing, and find other means to supply nutrients within the soil, like Osmocote? While AS has the advantage starting off, it does have its drawbacks. Eventually, won't you have to renew nutrients no matter what substrate you go with?

                            It is aggravating knowing that Eco's claims about having NPK and micros is misleading, but I still prefer it for how clean it remains when disturbed and how it looks. Maybe they should include a small bag of Osmocote Plus in each bag instead of that stupid clarity packet.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks Tom for clearing up my confusion. I am astounded not so much by what I don't know ,but rather by how much I thought I did know.
                              I shall continue reading, learning. Thanks for pointing me to where .

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X