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  • #31
    About It For Now

    Hi,

    I am at a bit of an impasse;
    :dispirited: I really cannot find a reasonable way of efficiently chelating individual metals with “household” items.

    So far the recipes seem to be working well, they really are not for “dry dosing,” but work well mixed in a slightly acidic solution (<pH 5), either as a stock solution or as the “dry dose” amount and mixing (distilled water is best) it prior to dosing.
    • A little vinegar (acetic acid), lemon juice, Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) anything to pull the pH down to 5 or so.

    Also, nothing really beats ball-milling (same as you use for making gunpowder) for mixing the recipes.
    :eek-new:

    Biollante
    The first sign we don't know what we are doing is an obsession with numbers. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

    Disclaimer: I am not trying to make you mad, it is just what I am, an evil plant monster, 'nuf said.
    • I believe the information I am giving is sound, I am not a veterinarian, professional chemist or particularly bright and certainly not a "Guru.".
    • I assume you are of legal age, competent and it is legal for you to acquire, possess and use any materials or perform any action in your in your jurisdiction.
    • When in doubt "don't."

    Comment


    • #32
      I live in Vietnam. I cannot buy CSM+B here, so this thread is very useful. Can I substitute Fe2O3 for Fe2O3.3H2O ? Thank you, Biollante.

      Trung,

      Comment


      • #33
        Happy 22/7 Day

        Hi,

        Yes, I think everywhere I used Iron (III) oxide it was the trihydrate.

        These are the three that used Fe2O3●3 H2O, Iron (III) oxide tri-hydrate, Rust for the iron.
        Generic form,
        EDTA, Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid-------------------------------------------599-grams
        MgSO4●7H2O, Magnesium sulfate hepta-hydrate, Epsom salt, ------------152-grams
        Fe2O3●3 H2O, Iron (III) oxide tri-hydrate, Rust-----------------------------------132-grams
        MnSO4●5 H2O, Manganese sulfate penta-hydrate ----------------------------- 89-grams
        ZnSO4●7 H2O, Zinc sulfate hepta-hydrate----------------------------------------- 18-grams
        H3BO3, Boric acid-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5-grams
        CuSO4●5H2O, Copper sulfate penta-hydrate (blue)------------------------------ 4-grams
        H2MoO4, Molybdic acid or dihydroxidodioxidomolybdenum------------------ 1-gram

        Generic form w/ MnSO4● H2O ,
        EDTA, Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid-------------------------------------------626-grams
        MgSO4●7H2O, Magnesium sulfate hepta-hydrate, Epsom salt, ------------152-grams
        Fe2O3●3 H2O, Iron (III) oxide tri-hydrate, Rust3----------------------------------132-grams
        MnSO4● H2O, Manganese (II) sulfate monohydrate --------------------------- 62-grams
        ZnSO4●7 H2O, Zinc sulfate hepta-hydrate----------------------------------------- 18-grams
        H3BO3, Boric acid-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5-grams
        CuSO4●5H2O, Copper sulfate penta-hydrate (blue4)------------------------------ 4-grams
        H2MoO4, Molybdic acid or dihydroxidodioxidomolybdenum------------------- 1-gram

        Generic form w/ Mn (II) SO4● H2O, ZnO, Na2B8O13 ● 4H2O
        EDTA, Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid-------------------------------------------634-grams
        MgSO4●7H2O, Magnesium sulfate hepta-hydrate, Epsom salt, ------------152-grams
        Fe2O3●3 H2O, Iron (III) oxide tri-hydrate, Rust3----------------------------------132-grams
        MnSO4● H2O, Manganese (II) sulfate monohydrate --------------------------- 62-grams
        ZnO, Zinc oxide---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5-grams
        Na2B8O13 4H2O, Solubor ----------------------------------------------------------- 4-grams
        CuSO4●5H2O, Copper sulfate penta-hydrate (blue4)------------------------------ 4-grams
        H2MoO4, Molybdic acid or dihydroxidodioxidomolybdenum------------------- 1-gram

        I can figure any of them for any combination.

        Biollante
        The first sign we don't know what we are doing is an obsession with numbers. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

        Disclaimer: I am not trying to make you mad, it is just what I am, an evil plant monster, 'nuf said.
        • I believe the information I am giving is sound, I am not a veterinarian, professional chemist or particularly bright and certainly not a "Guru.".
        • I assume you are of legal age, competent and it is legal for you to acquire, possess and use any materials or perform any action in your in your jurisdiction.
        • When in doubt "don't."

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by trung_ngdu View Post
          I live in Vietnam. I cannot buy CSM+B here, so this thread is very useful. Can I substitute Fe2O3 for Fe2O3.3H2O ? Thank you, Biollante.

          Trung,
          Hey, can you order Seachem Flourish? I think you can get it there if you lived in Saigon.

          I got family there, where do you get your tank etc?

          Comment


          • #35
            Oh well, just my luck.
            CAme across this thread just a month too late.
            It is hard to get csm+b at reasonable rates here, so I was thinking of making a subsitute.
            I did not find anything on the net so I just calculated everything myself.
            Now it look like I invented the wheel.
            All in all a wonderful thread.
            Athough I frequent many forums, but this forum is fast becoming my top of the list.
            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            S.Raghuvanshi

            http://sandeeprworldofaquariums.blogspot.in/

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Biollante View Post
              Hi

              Yes, I think you can easily substitute Ferrous Gluconate, C12H24FeO14●2 H2O.


              In ferrous gluconate, properly Iron (II) gluconate, the gluconate, properly Gluconic acid, C6H12O7, the sugar in honey and fruits, is the chelate.

              The problem is that gluconate is a much weaker chelate then EDTA.

              I have not tried this and I am do not smart enough to know whether the excess EDTA picks up any of the iron from the weaker gluconate.


              I suspect this formulation is definitely better for lower pH and daily dosing.


              Idealized form with Ferrous Gluconate:

              Note: The copper sulfate, Manganese (II) sulfate, and Zinc oxide need to be ground together with the EDTA first.

              EDTA, Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid-------------------------------------------159.3-grams
              MgSO4●7H2O, Magnesium sulfate hepta-hydrate, Epsom salt, ----------------152-grams
              C12H24FeO14●2 H2O, Iron (II) gluconate --------------------------------------610-grams
              MnSO4● H2O, Manganese (II) sulfate monohydrate ----------------------------- 62-grams
              ZnO, Zinc oxide------------------------------------------------------------------------ 5-grams
              Na2B8O13 ● 4H2O, Solubor -------------------------------------------------------- 6.7-grams
              CuSO4●5H2O, Copper sulfate penta-hydrate (blue)-------------------------------- 4-grams
              H2MoO4, Molybdic acid or dihydroxidodioxidomolybdenum--------------------- 1-gram


              16% EDTA
              8.5% sulfate (2.9% Sulfur)
              7% Iron (chelated)
              2%Mangenese (chelated)
              1.5% Magnesium
              1.4% Boron
              .75% Sodium
              .4% Zinc (chelated)
              .1% Copper (chelated)
              .06% Molybdenum


              Biollante
              If my understanding is correct, Fe gluconate is already in chelated form.
              Therefore is EDTA used to chelate other metals?
              How important is it to chelate other metals if iron is already in chelated form.
              I already have Fe gluconate, so will following ratio hold.

              EDTA, Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid ----------------------------------------------------129gms
              MgSO4●7H2O, Magnesium sulfate hepta-hydrate, Epsom salt -----------------------------152gms
              C12H24FeO14*2h20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------610gms
              MnSO4●5 H2O, Manganese sulfate penta-hydrate -----------------------------------------89gms
              ZnSO4●7 H2O, Zinc sulfate hepta-hydrate -----------------------------------------------18gms
              H3BO3, Boric acid ----------------------------------------------------------------------------5gms
              CuSO4●5H2O, Copper sulfate penta-hydrate (blue) ------------------------------------------4gms
              H2MoO4, Molybdic acid or dihydroxidodioxidomolybdenum -------------------------------------1gms


              AND

              My % will be

              Fe -------------------------------------------------7.63%
              Mg--------------------------------------------------2.11%
              Mn--------------------------------------------------2.29%
              B ---------------------------------------------------1.42%
              Zn---------------------------------------------------0.36%
              Cu --------------------------------------------------0.15%
              Mo--------------------------------------------------0.12%
              Last edited by sandeepraghuvanshi; 07-20-2012, 12:30 PM.
              ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              S.Raghuvanshi

              http://sandeeprworldofaquariums.blogspot.in/

              Comment


              • #37
                A Little Honey In The Water?

                Hi,

                I will have to do a little research, offhand (from fallible memory), gluconate is the anion of Gluconic acid formed at neutral pH in water. This is why iron gluconate is ineffective in alkaline water.

                I guess it would depend on the amount of excess gluconate in your iron.

                If you can get Potassium gluconate, a dietary supplement, the gluconate has to be weakly bound to the Potassium and will have an extreme preference for the higher oxidation states. I have not tried this so if you do, let me know how it goes.

                Oddly enough, I get reasonable chelates in slightly acidic solution, <pH6.8 or so, using honey.:calm:

                Actually it appears any dissolved organic material chelates, sequesters a certain amount of metal in water, especially when slightly acidic, so crappy water may be the answer.

                More later…

                Biollante
                Last edited by Biollante; 07-20-2012, 06:14 PM. Reason: font
                The first sign we don't know what we are doing is an obsession with numbers. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

                Disclaimer: I am not trying to make you mad, it is just what I am, an evil plant monster, 'nuf said.
                • I believe the information I am giving is sound, I am not a veterinarian, professional chemist or particularly bright and certainly not a "Guru.".
                • I assume you are of legal age, competent and it is legal for you to acquire, possess and use any materials or perform any action in your in your jurisdiction.
                • When in doubt "don't."

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Biollante View Post
                  Hi,
                  I will have to do a little research, offhand (from fallible memory), gluconate is the anion of Gluconic acid formed at neutral pH in water. This is why iron gluconate is ineffective in alkaline water.
                  I guess it would depend on the amount of excess gluconate in your iron.
                  If you can get Potassium gluconate, a dietary supplement, the gluconate has to be weakly bound to the Potassium and will have an extreme preference for the higher oxidation states. I have not tried this so if you do, let me know how it goes.
                  Biollante
                  I have Ferrous gluconate, and that too a half kg packet, so I am stuck with it for some time.
                  Do you mean I need to add Potassium gluconate to it?
                  You lost me on this honey thing
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron%28II%29_gluconate
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  S.Raghuvanshi

                  http://sandeeprworldofaquariums.blogspot.in/

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Gluconate, How Much, Do You Have Label Information?

                    Hi,

                    Sorry, I missed the point of your post.


                    Let me start over (and I have done a little research).

                    You are correct Fe gluconate is a chelated form of iron. I was correct gluconate is the anion of Gluconic acid formed at neutral pH in water; this tends to render it less effective as the pH increases.


                    As to how important it is to chelate the other metals when using a chelated form of iron, depends entirely on how much excess chelating agent is available.

                    I have been messing around with different alternatives for folks that do not have access to commercially available trace mixes. What I have found is that products such as CSM+B rely on huge excess amounts of EDTA.


                    It is important that metals are chelated, complexed.
                    :gw

                    My thought was that if you wanted to use gluconate to complex the other metals and not knowing how much excess gluconate was available, an obvious alternative would be Potassium gluconate, a dietary supplement, the gluconate is weakly bound to the Potassium and should prefer the higher oxidation states of Copper, Manganese and Zinc.


                    I had forgotten about your water situation, pardon me, I tend to lock in on the thread context.


                    If you are going to use iron gluconate in alkaline water, you will need to dose it a couple of times a day.

                    I would start with figuring out how much you would need to meet your weekly target dose under optimum conditions <6.8 pH). Divide by 7 and dose that amount 2 or 3 times per day.

                    There are many ways to “complex” metals. Organic materials among them, honey is one I have fooled around with and had some success.


                    When using these alternatives or dosing at I rates it helps to have a high cation exchange capacity (CEC) substrate, just in case.
                    :gw

                    Biollante
                    The first sign we don't know what we are doing is an obsession with numbers. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

                    Disclaimer: I am not trying to make you mad, it is just what I am, an evil plant monster, 'nuf said.
                    • I believe the information I am giving is sound, I am not a veterinarian, professional chemist or particularly bright and certainly not a "Guru.".
                    • I assume you are of legal age, competent and it is legal for you to acquire, possess and use any materials or perform any action in your in your jurisdiction.
                    • When in doubt "don't."

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Well the label says
                      Ferrous gluconate, Fe(C6H11O7)*2H2O, M.W. 482.17, 95-97%.

                      Regarding honey, do you mean to say if I mix honey with fegluco, it will make it more stable?
                      Regarding substrate, I have ada amazonia
                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      S.Raghuvanshi

                      http://sandeeprworldofaquariums.blogspot.in/

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Well the label says
                        Ferrous gluconate, Fe(C6H11O7)*2H2O, M.W. 482.17, 95-97%.

                        Regarding honey, do you mean to say if I mix honey with fegluco, it will make it more stable?
                        Regarding substrate, I have ada amazonia
                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        S.Raghuvanshi

                        http://sandeeprworldofaquariums.blogspot.in/

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Well... Okay, Let's try This...

                          Hi,

                          Okay the formula must be Fe(C6H11O7)2•2H2O, since the molecular weight is 482.17, claiming a purity of about 96% that would be about 11% Fe+2 and almost 78% gluconate.

                          It seems to me there should be plenty of excess to cover the addition of less than 0.2% copper, around 2% Manganese and less than 0.6% Zinc. Be very careful with the Copper and Zinc.

                          {Warning I have not tried this, I believe it should work, but…}

                          Sorry about the delay, I have some iron gluconate, I just did a down and dirty, version, and it appears to have worked, used four times the Copper sulfate, double the Zinc sulfate overdosed a jar with Hygrophila difformis, Palaemonetes paludosus and Daphnia pulex in there and everyone seems happy two plus hours on.

                          I do not know what you have available but you may wish to try something like this,

                          Check first before you make any changes, unless you are comfortable calculating the values.
                          :gw

                          Reasonable accuracy is important, grinding the stuff together is the most important step, nothing really beats ball-milling (same as you use for making gunpowder
                          :eek-new:) for mixing the recipes.

                          If mixing this into a solution for dosing A little vinegar (acetic acid), lemon juice, Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) anything to pull the pH down to 5 or below.

                          Borax and Iron (II) gluconate di-hydrate version.
                          MgSO4•7H2O, Magnesium sulfate hepta-hydrate, Epsom salt, ------------82-grams
                          Fe(C6H11O7)2•2H2O, Iron (II) gluconate di-hydrate, -------------------270-grams
                          MnSO4•5 H2O, Manganese sulfate penta-hydrate ------------------------ 36-grams
                          ZnSO4•7 H2O, Zinc sulfate hepta-hydrate--------------------------------- 7-grams
                          Na2B4O7•10H2O, Borax--------------------------------------------=-------- 3-grams
                          CuSO4•5H2O, Copper sulfate penta-hydrate (blue)------------------------- 2-grams
                          H2MoO4, Molybdic acid or dihydroxidodioxidomolybdenum----------------- 0.5-gram


                          8.6% sulfate (2.9% Sulfur)
                          7.4% Iron (chelated)
                          2%Mangenese (chelated?)
                          2% Magnesium.
                          .4% Zinc (chelated?)
                          .36% Sodium
                          .13% Copper (chelated?)
                          .085% Boron {Corrected 31 July 2012
                          sandeepraghuvanshi caught my error I had listed it as .85%, thanks, sorry for any inconvenience.}
                          .074% Molybdenum

                          The honey was an alternative, just the way what passes for my brain works.
                          :highly_amused:

                          Biollante
                          Last edited by Biollante; 08-01-2012, 07:25 AM. Reason: format, my mistake-correct arithmetic error
                          The first sign we don't know what we are doing is an obsession with numbers. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

                          Disclaimer: I am not trying to make you mad, it is just what I am, an evil plant monster, 'nuf said.
                          • I believe the information I am giving is sound, I am not a veterinarian, professional chemist or particularly bright and certainly not a "Guru.".
                          • I assume you are of legal age, competent and it is legal for you to acquire, possess and use any materials or perform any action in your in your jurisdiction.
                          • When in doubt "don't."

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Thanks
                            I like to dose with stock solutions, and I normally make solutions for one month.
                            So I would be taking a small amount of this powder and mix it with 250 ml of water (an example only)
                            Now I can either mix this whole amount in one batch and use it or mix small batches.
                            Mixing in small batches is not possible because the quantities of Mo will be so low, that it will not be possible for me to weigh.
                            I have a electronic scale which gives weight upto 2 decimal places of gram.
                            The second option is to mix in one batch and mixing of these chemicals in dry powder form will again be a problem
                            It would be very difficult to mix 270 gms of Ferrous gluconate with .5 gm of Molybidic acid and expect to have a homogenous mix.
                            So I was thinking of doing following.
                            I keep Fegluco & Magnesium Sulphate aside.
                            Mix all other powders together and dissolve in say 250 ml of water.
                            While making monthly stock solutions, I mix Fegluco, Mgso4, and a few ml of other traces from my second mix.
                            So I would mix following in 250 ml of water as follows;
                            Manganese Sulphate---------------------------------36 gms
                            Borax-----------------------------------------------------3 gms.
                            Zinc Sulphate------------------------------------------7 gms
                            Copper Sulphate--------------------------------------2 gms
                            Molybidic acid-----------------------------------------0.5 gms

                            Now for my monthly mix I mix as follows:
                            Water----------------------------------------250 ml
                            Fegluconate---------------------------------5.5 gms
                            Mg sulphate---------------------------------1.67 gms
                            14 ml of above stock solution

                            So when I dose 1 ml of this solution in my 175 lit tank, it should give me .0146 ppm of iron.
                            Let me know if I am missing something.
                            This calculations are not final, I need to recheck them.
                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            S.Raghuvanshi

                            http://sandeeprworldofaquariums.blogspot.in/

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              It Is The Excess Gluconate We Are Trying To Use

                              Hi,

                              How are 5.5-grams of iron gluconate of going to provide enough excess gluconate to chelate 36-grams of Manganese Sulfate, 7-grams of Zinc Sulfate and 2-grams of Copper Sulfate?


                              How much iron gluconate do you have?

                              Yes, mixing 400 grams of everything else with 0.5 gram of Molybidic acid (or anything) and having a homogenous mix is difficult. What I have found is that thoroughly grinding everything together is important.
                              :disillusionment:

                              If you are saying, you have a scale (reasonably) accurate to 0.01-gram (10-mg) that is close enough.

                              In this case, it is important to grind the iron gluconate thoroughly with the Copper sulfate, Zinc sulfate and Manganese sulfate since it is excess gluconate in the iron gluconate we need to chelate the metals. Leaving the Molybidic acid will not cause a major problem.

                              The only success I have had with using solutions to mix the components in solution has been to go through a couple of steps of crystalizing and re-crystallization, which without a hot plate magnetic stirrer and vacuum filtration is an even bigger pain then grinding or ball milling. Then after the re-crystallization, the product is very pure, extremely hard, incredibly concentrated and needs to be ground for accurate weighing, which is important to avoid overdosing.

                              Biollante
                              The first sign we don't know what we are doing is an obsession with numbers. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

                              Disclaimer: I am not trying to make you mad, it is just what I am, an evil plant monster, 'nuf said.
                              • I believe the information I am giving is sound, I am not a veterinarian, professional chemist or particularly bright and certainly not a "Guru.".
                              • I assume you are of legal age, competent and it is legal for you to acquire, possess and use any materials or perform any action in your in your jurisdiction.
                              • When in doubt "don't."

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Biollante View Post
                                Hi,

                                How are 5.5-grams of iron gluconate of going to provide enough excess gluconate to chelate 36-grams of Manganese Sulfate, 7-grams of Zinc Sulfate and 2-grams of Copper Sulfate?


                                How much iron gluconate do you have?

                                OK, got yout point, I missed out the part were gluconate chelates elements other than iron.
                                Yes, mixing 400 grams of everything else with 0.5 gram of Molybidic acid (or anything) and having a homogenous mix is difficult. What I have found is that thoroughly grinding everything together is important.
                                :disillusionment:

                                If you are saying, you have a scale (reasonably) accurate to 0.01-gram (10-mg) that is close enough.

                                In this case, it is important to grind the iron gluconate thoroughly with the Copper sulfate, Zinc sulfate and Manganese sulfate since it is excess gluconate in the iron gluconate we need to chelate the metals. Leaving the Molybidic acid will not cause a major problem.
                                Biollante
                                Now to find a way to grind them all togather, all I have is a small kitchen grinder, and a spice grinder.
                                What is a ball miller?
                                ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                S.Raghuvanshi

                                http://sandeeprworldofaquariums.blogspot.in/

                                Comment

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