Moving into EI: is this my first sign of deficiency?

fablau

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Hello here,
I am slowly moving from a light fert regime by using the Seachem line, to a real EI method by using ferts, and I must say that it is already paying off!

I don't dose dry ferts yet, despite I ordered and have them ready to use, but for the past week I have been doubling my old schedule based on the Seachem line to 50% match what I will try to do the next week (real EI method), alternating macros and micros as needed.

Now, despite all my plants are doing much better, some of the oldest Rotalas are sort of "melting" in a way that their leaves looks almost translucent. Here is a picture taken yesterday of one of them:

nyra5ahy.jpg


I have read somewhere that that might be due to No3 deficiency, but that would be weird since my No3 level is around 20ppm (measured yesterday.)

Any other ideas?

Thank you in advance!

Fab.
 

fablau

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More stems are getting that way, and they are also curling (!!) which never happened before! Anyone can help me? Is this due to the increase in fertilization? What else?

Here is a picture taken today of one of those curler stems:

9ana6uhy.jpg


Thanks!
 
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Yo-han

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Its not a NO3 deficiency. NO3 deficiency starts in the lower leaves, not in new leaves. So it must be a deficiency from a immobile nutrient. Plant immobile nutrients cannot be translocated from older tissue to a new one due to the nature of the elements and sometimes other conditions. In other words they are stuck where ever they landed the first time. Deficiency symptoms for these elements are observed in the young plant parts. Iron (Fe), Calcium (Ca), Manganese (Mn), Zinc (Zn), Copper (Cu), and Boron (B) are all more or less immobile nutrients. So first one to rule out is Calcium. This is quite easy, measure your GH. It should be 5 at least. If that is ok, increase your traces, because all other elements are traces. Good luck!
 

fablau

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Wow, thank you so much Yo-Han for your very clear explanation! That makes perfect sense! I guess the problem is in micro nutrients since my GH is over 15. I have been actually a little bit lean on micros compared to macros.

I will try to increase those then. What you just taught me is a great notion I didn't know about! Thank you again very much!

I will post the results in the coming days.
 

Paulo Soares

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Moving into EI: is this my first sign of deficiency?

fablau;120897 said:
Wow, thank you so much Yo-Han for your very clear explanation! That makes perfect sense! I guess the problem is in micro nutrients since my GH is over 15. I have been actually a little bit lean on micros compared to macros.

I will try to increase those then. What you just taught me is a great notion I didn't know about! Thank you again very much!

I will post the results in the coming days.


Good morning,
I finally found someone with the same problem i have. Your plants are just like mine.
Dou you solve this ?
CAn you share how?

I also think that it comes from a Micro deficiency. And as i bought the micros to a person, i don´t know how he done it.

Hope to listen from you
Best regards,
 

bcarl_26gal

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fablau said:
I measured again my No3 levels today, and they are actually at about 40ppm... I don't think is a No3 deficiency!
I know this thread is VERY old; however, I believe this was a micro nutrient toxicity based on what many other hobbyist have experienced me included.
 

fablau

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bcarl_26gal said:
I know this thread is VERY old; however, I believe this was a micro nutrient toxicity based on what many other hobbyist have experienced me included.
That would be weird because by the time I increased micros, all plants got better...
 

fablau

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scottward said:
Fablau probably too long ago to remember, but did you make any changes to your lighting back when you first noticed ths?

Yes, I can't remember perfectly, but I think at that time I just dealt with Co2. I usually deal with one thing at a time, and at that time it took a while for me to understand I had to increase Co2 a big deal before to have good results.
 
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Regarding the photo with the clear leaves of the Rotala's, that's a micronutrient toxicity which is somehow damaging the development of chlorophyll.
 

scottward

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Solcielo lawrencia said:
Regarding the photo with the clear leaves of the Rotala's, that's a micronutrient toxicity which is somehow damaging the development of chlorophyll.

Are water changes being done?


Which nutrient is toxic? Too much of a required nutrient or the presence of something that shouldn't be there to begin with?


Would be interesting to hear Tom's thoughts if he's about.


I've seen this type of thing happen when I've used blunt scissors to cut stems causing bruising which has in the end caused the plant to disintegrate like this.


Scott.
 
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scottward said:
Which nutrient is toxic? Too much of a required nutrient or the presence of something that shouldn't be there to begin with?
It's one of the essential trace elements which has yet to be identified. I've observed this exact same phenomenon since I first got into the hobby as have many many others. This is clearly not caused by bruising.


Also note: the plants also have crinkly growth, which is another thing I've observed in my own plants for the past couple of years. These two symptoms usually go hand in hand for some reason.
 

scottward

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Solcielo,


How can a trace element build up to toxic levels if water changes are being done???


And - even if water changes weren't being done - surely that toxicity would affect the fish before the plants?


Scott.
 
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How large of a water change?


E.g.


Dose 0.2ppm of X 3 times/wk:


1) 0.2ppm X 3 = 0.6ppm/week


2) 50% WC = 0.3ppm


3) 0.3ppm + 0.6ppm = 0.9ppm


4) 50% WC = 0.45ppm


5) 0.45ppm + 0.6 = 1.04ppm


6) 50% WC = 0.55ppm


7) 0.55ppm + 0.6ppm = 1.15ppm


8) 50% WC


9) 0.57ppm + 0.6ppm = 1.17ppm


10) 50% WC


11) 0.58ppm + 0.6ppm - 1.18ppm


...


Thus, dosing 0.2ppm x 3x/week ultimately results in 1.19ppm. Therefore, WCs are not a cure-all.

And - even if water changes weren't being done - surely that toxicity would affect the fish before the plants?
Most probably, but do you know how to tell if fish are feeling stressed? I certainly don't. I can only tell if the water quality is bad when fish show observable behavioral changes. But, that could easily be attributed to disease or other stresses, which may actually be the result of bad water quality. So do we attribute such changes to the stress or the water quality that induced that stress? Even smokers who smoke 2 packs a day behave normally. So do their kids who breath in 2nd hand smoke.
 
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scottward

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Solcielo lawrencia said:
Thus, dosing 0.2ppm x 3x/week ultimately results in 1.19ppm. Therefore, WCs are not a cure-all.

Solcielo,


That's EI fundamentals stuff - 50% water change, maximum build up assuming 0 uptake is 2X what you're putting in.


EI factors that in; 2X isn't going to do any harm - provided what you're putting in is appropriate to begin with of course.


EI stipulates what is appropriate for dosing micros - be it an off-the-shelf product like Flourish, CSM+B etc. I use Rexolin APN which works with EI. It's slightly higher in copper than the others but even if I got lazy with my water changes it would be quite a while before it built up enough to be toxic.


If you are using a DIY trace mix and haven't carefully prepared it.....you might need to check what's in it (or what's not)........


I used Wett's calculator, it was really good. The link for it should be on here somewhere...


What have you been using for your traces again?


Scott.
 

fablau

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Solcielo, what you wrote above makes sense of course, we all know that nutrients accumulate even if we perform weekly WC, but what about plants intake? How much is that in your experience? Have you measured that in some way?
 
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Plants don't use much at all of the trace elements, not even 1/8th of EI using CSM+B according to PortalMasterRy's testing thread at TPT. Having the water tested was a real eye-opener, and a shock. Before, I assumed that plants did indeed use most of it. Why else are we dosing so much? But no, they don't. Most of what's dosed is still in the water.


I've gradually reduced CSM+B down to 0.2ppm of Fe as proxy for the other micronutrients. This appears to be the upper limit before noticeable toxicity occurs. However, I've reduced it further by using FeDTPA at 2:1 with CSM+B. 0.2ppm of Fe per week seems to be the amount that's necessary to prevent iron deficiency in my tank. It will be a few more weeks before I can gather enough information.


Also note, the variety of plants may determine what nutrients are taken up since each plant has different nutritional requirements. Thus, the safe concentrations I'm able to determine in my tank may not apply to yours.
 

scottward

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I've been in this situation before - but only to be disappointed when somebody like Tom shows me the exact same plant I'm having trouble with growing perfectly fine under conditions that are far more extreme than what I hypothesised the problem was.


For example, there have been *heaps* of discussions on too much calcium/too little calcium - then Tom (or somebody else with experience) shows a photo of the exact same plant growing beautifully in water with loads or very little of that nutrient.


I really hope you are correct though - there are too many mysteries in this hobby and it's downright frustrating when you think you've cracked something only to then realise that that wasn't it.


Part of the problem is that there are so many variables - variables that we deliberately change and others that change by themselves that we don't know about.


Of all my hobbies this is easily the most challenging one. :)


The thing that gets me here is that CSM+B has been used for a very long time with great success at full EI dosing...and people get lazy and skip water changes too......


Hmmm.


Scott.