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  • Can flow be reduced during non-photo periods?

    I've had some losses when adding new stock over the last few weeks. I've got a good amount of flow and the new stock seems to struggle somewhat the first day or so and then seems more able to cope with the new demands made by the increased current over their previous home. I'm not one to pass off on losses. Critters deserve better husbandry than that. I'd like to lower the flow in non-photo periods to give the guys a little more time to aclimate but I want to make sure I'm not risking the rest of the stock in the process. My plan is to place the Koralia 750 on the same timer as my CO2 or my lights.

    Established stock seems to thrive otherwise.

    Thoughts?

    Pat
    Hard Hat by Day
    Wet, Prunny, (hopefully)Green Thumb by Night

    Equipment list:
    See my profile

    Flora:
    Polygonum sp 'Sao Paulo'; Hemianthus glomeratus; Ludwigia repens; Starougyne repens 049 Tropica; Cabomba caroliniana; Limnophila aromatica; Heteranthera zosterifolia

    Fauna:
    Oto's; SAE's; Red Wag Platies: Gold Mickey Mouse Platies; Neon Tetras

  • #2
    Should not hurt, but perhaps the high CO2 was an issue, new home etc, you can try it or add different flow patterns.
    As long as the O2 is good, CO2 not too high etc........the fish should be fine.

    As is always the rule, fish come first, plants/algae come second.

    If the fish where healthy to begin with, I have had no issues with the flow.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
    www.BarrReport.com

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks Tom,

      I though I might have an O2 issue but I have plenty of surface ripple and the other stock is fine.

      I had raised the CO2 earlier to battle a Rhizo outbreak. That issue could have been partially due to just an immature tank and I may be able to back down on the CO2 till I fully stock the tank.

      Thanks again for the quick responce,
      Pat
      Hard Hat by Day
      Wet, Prunny, (hopefully)Green Thumb by Night

      Equipment list:
      See my profile

      Flora:
      Polygonum sp 'Sao Paulo'; Hemianthus glomeratus; Ludwigia repens; Starougyne repens 049 Tropica; Cabomba caroliniana; Limnophila aromatica; Heteranthera zosterifolia

      Fauna:
      Oto's; SAE's; Red Wag Platies: Gold Mickey Mouse Platies; Neon Tetras

      Comment


      • #4
        Of Course You Can

        Hi Pat,

        Another trick, perhaps in addition to turning off the Koralia 750 with the lights is adding an air-pump and air-stone(s) or wand that comes on when the lights go off. Try this for a few months while the tank matures.

        While I think this may be part of the critter loss situation, I suspect there is more to the story, if you do not mind sharing your situation, perhaps we can figure out what is going on. Your algae problem with high CO2 is an excellent clue.

        The thing most of us are guilty of is lack of patients, when it comes to stocking. I am convinced the number one cause of critter deaths is ammonia, something totally in our power to control. People want to blame all kinds of other stuff (do not even bother with the nasty-grams). Next is critter choice.

        I encourage everyone to keep even an informal journal, keep receipts and records of treatments, changes in tank conditions, and so forth. :gw

        Biollante
        The first sign we don't know what we are doing is an obsession with numbers. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

        Disclaimer: I am not trying to make you mad, it is just what I am, an evil plant monster, 'nuf said.
        • I believe the information I am giving is sound, I am not a veterinarian, professional chemist or particularly bright and certainly not a "Guru.".
        • I assume you are of legal age, competent and it is legal for you to acquire, possess and use any materials or perform any action in your in your jurisdiction.
        • When in doubt "don't."

        Comment


        • #5
          Ok, My first purchase was 8 Oto's (one death - replaced) followed a few weeks later by six SAE's (one death - not replaced) and 3 Nerite snails(one death - not replaced). This was the total population for some time while the Rhizo war was on. I then purchased the first 6 of the Platies (3 deaths - replaced - one additional death) The last addition was last Wednesday when I added 11 Neons and 3 Platies. (deaths 3 Neons and 1 Platy). All the deaths occur within 48 hours of introduction. After that the remaining stock is just fine. With the exception of the SAE's and Nirites the all purchases were from a local Pet Smart. BTW the Nerite death was an unfortunate encounter with the Rio 800.

          If you think ammonia could be the problem, perhaps if I slightly over fed over the space of ... say two weeks ... and let the excess food and waste feed and grow the biofilter. Then make my next addition of about 10 Neons (I'd like to top them out at between 45 and 60).

          Pat
          Last edited by pat w; 10-09-2010, 03:14 AM. Reason: Additional info
          Hard Hat by Day
          Wet, Prunny, (hopefully)Green Thumb by Night

          Equipment list:
          See my profile

          Flora:
          Polygonum sp 'Sao Paulo'; Hemianthus glomeratus; Ludwigia repens; Starougyne repens 049 Tropica; Cabomba caroliniana; Limnophila aromatica; Heteranthera zosterifolia

          Fauna:
          Oto's; SAE's; Red Wag Platies: Gold Mickey Mouse Platies; Neon Tetras

          Comment


          • #6
            Upon Further Review

            Hi Pat,

            Given the deaths seem to be within the first 48 hours without a quarantine period it is hard to say whether it was poor stock selection (box store, Pet Smart qualifies this is most likely ) or poor introduction.

            The fact that the Ottos have done well is a pretty good indicator of good water quality. The snail is one of those live and learn things.

            Rhizo doesn't just happen, though just about anyone can induce it.

            While I stand by what I said earlier I went back and refreshed my memory on your situation and while I still think something is feeding the Rhizo, though it strikes me (upside the head) as the Rhizo may just be stubbornly hanging on.

            It may be time for you to try one of those shortcuts too which I usually object.

            I think you have enough at risk to start a quarantine, sanitize or sterilize protocol.

            Biollante
            The first sign we don't know what we are doing is an obsession with numbers. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

            Disclaimer: I am not trying to make you mad, it is just what I am, an evil plant monster, 'nuf said.
            • I believe the information I am giving is sound, I am not a veterinarian, professional chemist or particularly bright and certainly not a "Guru.".
            • I assume you are of legal age, competent and it is legal for you to acquire, possess and use any materials or perform any action in your in your jurisdiction.
            • When in doubt "don't."

            Comment


            • #7
              fyi, otos and sae's that have been sitting at a fish store usually dont fare well. They are often undernourished since they do not have a good "green" diet, and lfs will put algeacide in their tanks too, not taking into consideration the ottos and sae's. ive had a number of ottos and saes go, but the ones that make it are very hardy. You dont mention what the temp in your tank is or what are your parameters either. i do run air at night with the lights off btw.

              Comment


              • #8
                Also bear in mind that ottos are fairly dumb. Any source of current they will attempt to swim against/into. That sometimes includes impellers and tap water hoses. In general though, fish from petco are usually in pretty bad shape. Petsmart is usually a little better, but you're much better off quarantining all new additions in general.

                -
                S

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Biollante View Post
                  Hi Pat,

                  Given the deaths seem to be within the first 48 hours without a quarantine period it is hard to say whether it was poor stock selection (box store, Pet Smart qualifies this is most likely ) or poor introduction.

                  The fact that the Ottos have done well is a pretty good indicator of good water quality. The snail is one of those live and learn things.

                  Rhizo doesn't just happen, though just about anyone can induce it.

                  While I stand by what I said earlier I went back and refreshed my memory on your situation and while I still think something is feeding the Rhizo, though it strikes me (upside the head) as the Rhizo may just be stubbornly hanging on.

                  It may be time for you to try one of those shortcuts too which I usually object.

                  I think you have enough at risk to start a quarantine, sanitize or sterilize protocol.

                  Biollante
                  I should have been clearer on the Rhizo front. I won, sort of, some few masses still remain mostly at the base of a rather thick stand of HM and elsewhere, but all are in retreat. I waited till I had the upper hand before I ordered the Starougyne from Tom.

                  Intro as follows
                  - Float 20 min.
                  - add 1/2 cup from tank float 20 min
                  - add 1/2 cup from tank float 20 min
                  - add 1/2 cup from tank float 20 min
                  - add 1/2 cup from tank float 20 min
                  - Intro

                  Still have the Potassium Permanginate that I have yet to use if that's one of the shortcuts you have in mind.

                  Originally posted by Htomassini View Post
                  fyi, otos and sae's that have been sitting at a fish store usually dont fare well. They are often undernourished since they do not have a good "green" diet, and lfs will put algeacide in their tanks too, not taking into consideration the ottos and sae's. ive had a number of ottos and saes go, but the ones that make it are very hardy. You dont mention what the temp in your tank is or what are your parameters either. i do run air at night with the lights off btw.
                  Temp 76F
                  Ammonia - Api test reads same as distilled water although both show a slight positive.
                  Nitrite - 0
                  Nitrate - ??? I'll check and get back to you.
                  Dosing - 75g CaCl2, 1 rnd tsp epsom salt , 6 lvl tsp Sodium Bicarb, 1 lvl tsp GHbooster at water change;
                  - 3.89 ppm NO3, 2.68 ppm K, 0.55 PO4, 0.16 ppm Fe daily autodose
                  2 -canisters @ 160 gph with a total of 2 liters of Seachem Matrix

                  I'm feeding standard flake and flake Spirulina and will soon get some frozen food and a veg clip for blanched veggies from PS

                  Originally posted by shoggoth43 View Post
                  Also bear in mind that ottos are fairly dumb. Any source of current they will attempt to swim against/into. That sometimes includes impellers and tap water hoses. In general though, fish from petco are usually in pretty bad shape. Petsmart is usually a little better, but you're much better off quarantining all new additions in general.

                  -
                  S
                  Yeah, the Oto's and SAE's are entertaining during a WC.


                  To All,
                  No quarantine capacity at present, will see as funds permit.

                  Thanks to all,
                  Pat
                  Last edited by pat w; 10-10-2010, 01:12 AM.
                  Hard Hat by Day
                  Wet, Prunny, (hopefully)Green Thumb by Night

                  Equipment list:
                  See my profile

                  Flora:
                  Polygonum sp 'Sao Paulo'; Hemianthus glomeratus; Ludwigia repens; Starougyne repens 049 Tropica; Cabomba caroliniana; Limnophila aromatica; Heteranthera zosterifolia

                  Fauna:
                  Oto's; SAE's; Red Wag Platies: Gold Mickey Mouse Platies; Neon Tetras

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Whooboy -another quarantine doesn't have to be expensive rant coming

                    will people never learn

                    Joe

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Minor Rant: Quarantine Need Not Be Complicated OR Expensive

                      Hi Pat,

                      I suppose this is my typical rant but...

                      {Rant Alert!!!}

                      A quarantine system need not be expensive or complex.

                      Sterilite (think Wal-Mart) containers, no need for substrate of any sort. An air pump and air-stone is nice, though not absolutely required. A hang on back filter if you have an extra one around works well.

                      A little sponge left (hidden) in the aquarium or filter. Use the water from the target aquarium, add sponge to filter if you have one, if not to the container. A filter is not a requirement, since in most cases the amount of water is small, changing 70-100% of the water each day should not be an arduous task. :gw

                      Little self-contained mini filters such as the Fluval 1 Plus are great, they are cheap, store easily in the container, the sponge is easily hidden in the display aquarium and they do not require full submersion to operate.

                      A heater if your place gets cold, though I use and have used heating pads, not sure what the Underwriters Laboratory folks would have to say about that, but I have not had a problem... so far. Also the top that comes with the Sterilite containers can loosely cover the container to help retain heat.

                      {Rant Concluded}

                      It also serves as a hospital tank if required.

                      Compared to your investment, a miniscule price for insurance.

                      Biollante
                      The first sign we don't know what we are doing is an obsession with numbers. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

                      Disclaimer: I am not trying to make you mad, it is just what I am, an evil plant monster, 'nuf said.
                      • I believe the information I am giving is sound, I am not a veterinarian, professional chemist or particularly bright and certainly not a "Guru.".
                      • I assume you are of legal age, competent and it is legal for you to acquire, possess and use any materials or perform any action in your in your jurisdiction.
                      • When in doubt "don't."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        With ottos and SAE, I usually find that brussel sprouts will help them recover from their poor fish store diets better than most veggies. Primarily because other fish don't care for it so much, and ottos tend to avoid the competitive foods, so this works well for them, and with SAE in the tank, you can leave it in much longer than other veggies. The SAE, even a single one, will eat away at it so much it doesn't have any chance to break down in the tank. Cheap, long lasting supply of green food. It will attract almost every snail in the tank, also.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Biollante View Post
                          Hi Pat,

                          I suppose this is my typical rant but...

                          {Rant Alert!!!}

                          A quarantine system need not be expensive or complex.

                          Sterilite (think Wal-Mart) containers, no need for substrate of any sort. An air pump and air-stone is nice, though not absolutely required. A hang on back filter if you have an extra one around works well.

                          A little sponge left (hidden) in the aquarium or filter. Use the water from the target aquarium, add sponge to filter if you have one, if not to the container. A filter is not a requirement, since in most cases the amount of water is small, changing 70-100% of the water each day should not be an arduous task. :gw

                          Little self-contained mini filters such as the Fluval 1 Plus are great, they are cheap, store easily in the container, the sponge is easily hidden in the display aquarium and they do not require full submersion to operate.

                          A heater if your place gets cold, though I use and have used heating pads, not sure what the Underwriters Laboratory folks would have to say about that, but I have not had a problem... so far. Also the top that comes with the Sterilite containers can loosely cover the container to help retain heat.

                          {Rant Concluded}

                          It also serves as a hospital tank if required.

                          Compared to your investment, a miniscule price for insurance.

                          Biollante
                          Working on it ... I'll hold off on new purchases till I have something in place.

                          Update. 2 more Neons down 1 Neon MIA ... down to 5 that I can find; all strong.

                          No more stock from PetSmart.

                          I have reduced CO2 slightly and the Koralia is switched on/off on the CO2 timer. The Neons and Otto's seem to love it.

                          Pat
                          Hard Hat by Day
                          Wet, Prunny, (hopefully)Green Thumb by Night

                          Equipment list:
                          See my profile

                          Flora:
                          Polygonum sp 'Sao Paulo'; Hemianthus glomeratus; Ludwigia repens; Starougyne repens 049 Tropica; Cabomba caroliniana; Limnophila aromatica; Heteranthera zosterifolia

                          Fauna:
                          Oto's; SAE's; Red Wag Platies: Gold Mickey Mouse Platies; Neon Tetras

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Just Get In The Habit...

                            Hi Pat,

                            One added advantage to the quarantine thing is that assuming Pet Smart has the two week return deal is that you keep the receipt and see. I am not necessarily opposed to folks buying from the big boxes, given the costs and problems with shipping.

                            I think you will be better off finding a local sort maybe join a local club, find people breeding and so forth. Still, quarantine it is not nearly the hassle everyone imagines once you get in the habit.

                            Biollante
                            Last edited by Biollante; 10-10-2010, 08:27 AM. Reason: Things started working...
                            The first sign we don't know what we are doing is an obsession with numbers. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

                            Disclaimer: I am not trying to make you mad, it is just what I am, an evil plant monster, 'nuf said.
                            • I believe the information I am giving is sound, I am not a veterinarian, professional chemist or particularly bright and certainly not a "Guru.".
                            • I assume you are of legal age, competent and it is legal for you to acquire, possess and use any materials or perform any action in your in your jurisdiction.
                            • When in doubt "don't."

                            Comment

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