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  • Help with Rhizoclonium

    HI Everyone and Tom especially,

    I just started a 5 feet X 2 feet X 2 feet tank recently. And these are the parameters I have.

    Fertilisation EI method Using 1 teaspoon of KNO3 every 1, 3 and 5th day, and 1/4 teaspoon of K2SO4 evry 2, 4, and 6th day. I do 50% water change on the 7th day.

    Lighting is about 3.2 Watts per gallon. ( 6 X 80 watt)

    Temperature at 25 degree celcius

    Recently I sarted seeing a lot of Rhizoclonium. I read that this is due to insufficient CO2.

    So my question is, is my lighting too high? I am thinking of using 3.2 W/G as the tank is 2 feet high and I want to make sure the fissidens at the bottom would get the light. I am only using one CO2 at one corner of the tank. Should I add one more CO2 tank to increase and make sure my drop checker is always yellow?

    So in summary, should I
    1. Increase the CO2 and keep the light as it is as I need to get light to the bottom of the tank.
    2. Decrease the light and keep CO2 as it is?

    Thanks a lot.

  • #2
    Hi,

    I am not Tom of course but here are my thoughts anyway...

    Lighting.

    What type of fixture/bulbs? T5, MH. CF?

    Wpg is a meaningless measurement regardless of lighting type. Even a 24" deep tank will get more light than you think.

    What are your goals? Do you want a lot of fast growth and require a lot of trimming? Or a slower growing tank?

    Please note that it is light that drives plant growth and subsequent c02 and nutrient demand...the higher the light the higher the demand esp for c02 and that is not always easy to meet. Macro and micro ferts are relatively easy to provide an abundance..c02 not so much...

    IMO, you should borrow or get a PAR meter and adjust your lights that way.. However, since they are expensive and not readily available, I would suggest you go with 2-4 bulbs at first and see how the growth is with those levels. You can always increase light. Try using the bulbs that give the most spread within your fixture....not sure of it's bulb configuration...

    You may find it easier to meet the lower demand at first.....

    C02:

    1. How are you diffusing the c02 into the tank? Please provide details.

    Please be aware that a drop checker is not always reliable. It should be moved around the tank to check various places as well. Just because it is yellow does still not mean that the plants have enough available to them..

    You need to watch the plants and fish to help guage c02:

    You may have too much if:

    1. Fish are at surface gulping or just congregating and that is not normal for them.
    2. Fish are panting or breathing more rapidly.
    3. Fish are discolored or listless.
    4. Fish are hiding and not as active

    You may have enough if:

    1. Plants pearl within 30 minutes of lights on.
    2. Leaves are well formed, abundant, no algae.
    3. No new algae is forming.
    4. Existing algae decreases.

    Many folks turn the c02 on about 30 minutes before lights on to help provide better c02 levels when the lights come on. c02 should be OFF when lights are off.

    How much/type filtration/flow do you have?
    Are you not dosing any micro nutrients?

    What kind of plants do you have? substrate?

    The more details you provide the better help Tom can provide....
    Last edited by Gerryd; 07-05-2010, 06:52 PM.
    Thanks,

    Gerry.

    'When something's not right, it's wrong'. Bob Dylan

    Current 220 scape

    http://www.barrreport.com/showthread...3219-220-video

    Comment


    • #3
      Temporary Thread Theft

      Originally posted by Gerryd View Post
      You may have too much if:

      1. Fish are at surface gulping or just congregating and that is not normal for them.
      2. Fish are panting or breathing more rapidly.
      3. Fish are discolored or listless.
      4. Fish are hiding and not as active

      You may have enough if:

      1. Plants pearl within 30 minutes of lights on.
      2. Leaves are well formed, abundant, no algae.
      3. No new algae is forming.
      4. Existing algae decreases.
      Number 1 on the "may not have enough" list is a recurring theme, but pearling isn't necessary correct? I've got my filter output pointed at such an angle as to provide a significant ripple on the surface, yet still have no pearling. Should there be pearling when there is a surface ripple?

      Is there a way to determine too much CO2 without fish? I can't really keep fish at the moment (that on-going saga), but when I get the chance I'd rather not gas them off the bat if at all possible.

      You can have your thread back now.

      Comment


      • #4
        c,

        Yes, pearling is not automatic...however, if providing that much light, even if underdosing EI a bit, and providing 'adequate' c02, that should trigger a bubble or two.

        Just something to look for is all.

        Another way is to compare what you have to right after a large WC.. if the WC provides pearling or more/better, than maybe something is off c02 wise,,

        AFAIK plants cannot overdose on c02, so if no inverts or fish, not sure how to tell w/o a c02 meter
        Thanks,

        Gerry.

        'When something's not right, it's wrong'. Bob Dylan

        Current 220 scape

        http://www.barrreport.com/showthread...3219-220-video

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi,

          I am only using one CO2 at one corner of the tank. Should I add one more CO2 tank to increase and make sure my drop checker is always yellow?
          Do you mean to add another c02 tank?

          Please note that there are many methods to diffuse c02 into water. some are more effective than others.

          You may find with a 150 gal like yours that you may need a combination of methods, or perhaps two of the SAME methods, to supply enough c02.

          For instance, you may use two c02 reactors, one on each side of the tank. Or maybe two discs, one on each side, etc. Or a disc and a needle wheel methods.

          You can do this with ONE TANK and regulator assembly, you just may need a manifold to properly allocate the amount of c02 to each 'side'.

          Does any of this help or make sense?
          Thanks,

          Gerry.

          'When something's not right, it's wrong'. Bob Dylan

          Current 220 scape

          http://www.barrreport.com/showthread...3219-220-video

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Gerryd View Post
            Another way is to compare what you have to right after a large WC.. if the WC provides pearling or more/better, than maybe something is off c02 wise,,
            Definately substantial pearling after WC. It'd seem there's more CO2 tweaking in my future. Thanks!

            Comment


            • #7
              C,

              Don't forget that 02 also is added at the time of water change...

              I have found that if I allow my wier levels to fall where a lot of 02 bubbles are generated, that my pearling intensifies dramatically if I leave it that way for even an hour or so...

              When I keep them level, the pearling is good, but not as intense as when the extra 02 is added...

              So, pearling is not 'just' c02....
              Thanks,

              Gerry.

              'When something's not right, it's wrong'. Bob Dylan

              Current 220 scape

              http://www.barrreport.com/showthread...3219-220-video

              Comment


              • #8
                Understood. I'm moreso looking at adjusting the filter ouput to increase surface ripple/O2 addition, then going from there. It'd make me feel better about CO2 levels and O2 saturation. Something I've probably neglected the most in my troubles is O2 levels.

                Comment


                • #9
                  shrimppaste,

                  Cheap and simple method to reduce lighting. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2009-04/diy/index.php

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by shrimppaste View Post
                    HI Everyone and Tom especially,

                    I just started a 5 feet X 2 feet X 2 feet tank recently. And these are the parameters I have.

                    Fertilisation EI method Using 1 teaspoon of KNO3 every 1, 3 and 5th day, and 1/4 teaspoon of K2SO4 evry 2, 4, and 6th day. I do 50% water change on the 7th day.

                    Lighting is about 3.2 Watts per gallon. ( 6 X 80 watt)

                    Temperature at 25 degree celcius

                    Recently I sarted seeing a lot of Rhizoclonium. I read that this is due to insufficient CO2.

                    So my question is, is my lighting too high? I am thinking of using 3.2 W/G as the tank is 2 feet high and I want to make sure the fissidens at the bottom would get the light. I am only using one CO2 at one corner of the tank. Should I add one more CO2 tank to increase and make sure my drop checker is always yellow?

                    So in summary, should I
                    1. Increase the CO2 and keep the light as it is as I need to get light to the bottom of the tank.
                    2. Decrease the light and keep CO2 as it is?

                    Thanks a lot.
                    Your description of 6 x 80 Watt's, it must be T5. I'm sure you are using too much light. I'm using half of what you have on my 180 Gallon which is 6" x 2" x 2" and also the Fissidens is doing very well, but I don't have Rhizoclonium
                    I measure light with a PAR meter and it's really surprising how intense T5's are. I still have 60 micromols at the substrate, which is still twice as much as plants minimally need.

                    I think it's going to be VERY hard to meet CO2 demand with that much light. So I'd suggest you use 4 tubes and keep it at 320 Watts. If you are using good reflectors, then you can use just 3 tubes, because good reflectors increase the light by 30% to 50% (that's what my PAR meter says)

                    This is based on the fact that you're not using grolux type tubes since they give just half the PAR value of a "normal" tube.

                    Everything together it will save you a lot of pruning, algae and money

                    regards,
                    dutchy
                    Last edited by dutchy; 07-06-2010, 09:45 AM. Reason: language correction
                    regards,
                    dutchy.

                    My 2011, 2012 and 2013 AGA aquascaping contest entries:
                    http://www.barrreport.com/album.php?u=21013

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      WOW! Thanks so much for all the info. I am now so much clearer as to what I need to so. So I definitely will cut down to 4 lights for a total of 320W and yes they are all T5. I am currently using a reactor. I have been having very good results with this reactor in my 3 feet tank. So I just went and bought one more reactor and an eheim 1250 to run this new reactor that I will place in the centre of the tank.

                      As for filtration, I am running 2 X eheim 2028. Which I think is sufficient.

                      So this is what I'll do to combat this.

                      1. Wash filter.
                      2. Change 50% water
                      3. Add Excel to maximum dosage
                      4. Do 3 days black out, turn off CO2.
                      5. Turn lights back on for 6 hours using 4 bulbs at 320
                      6. Do water change again
                      7. add one more CO2 reactor
                      8. Increase lighting to 10 hours after about 2 weeks when I see more plant growth

                      I am pretty sure this will solve the issue. This beginning process gives me the most headache but at the same time when we're able to solve it, it feels so so good.

                      Thanks again for all the quick responses. you guys are really good and fast.

                      Thanks a bunch.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Allthough it sounds good, I'm not sure if the two 2028's are sufficient if you're using the reactors inline. If you measure the REAL output of these filters at the return at tank level with the reactors installed, you could be very disappointed as I expect they are not doing more thana 100 gallon per hour each. Just take the amount of seconds to fill up a 1/4 of a gallon container and convert to gallons per hour. You should have something like 5 to 6 times the tank volume in pump capacity, what would mean two filters of 375 gallon per hour each. like the Eheim 2076. That way you have a better chance at meetiing CO2 demand with inline reactors

                        Even then you would still be kind of low on overall flow, which should be like 10x turnover total as a starting point. Adding a powerhead can help here.

                        regards,
                        dutchy
                        regards,
                        dutchy.

                        My 2011, 2012 and 2013 AGA aquascaping contest entries:
                        http://www.barrreport.com/album.php?u=21013

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          No actually I am running the reactors separately using a eheim professional pump.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            And I also have a Koralia wavemaker K1 running in the tank. So with the teo eheim outlets, the koralia and the professional I have four water outlets in the tank.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Sounds good. Good luck and let us know what happens

                              regards,
                              dutchy
                              regards,
                              dutchy.

                              My 2011, 2012 and 2013 AGA aquascaping contest entries:
                              http://www.barrreport.com/album.php?u=21013

                              Comment

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