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Metering and Needle Valves For Our Use

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  • Metering and Needle Valves For Our Use

    Should we start a discussion about needle and metering valves? ... About what to look for, part numbers, Cv, and whatever else pops up.

    I've been using Ideal 52-1-12 needle valves. This model of Ideal works very well over a wide range.
    Ideal needle valves: http://www.idealvalve.com/

    I just picked up an Ideal 54-2-11 stainless steel straight through needle valve. I wonder if it will offer a good flow range. You can compare its specs with the 54-1-11 valve which has a lot of similar specs to the 52-1-12. The differences are the body material and shape.
    Ideal 54 series: http://idealvalve.thomasnet.com/view...ves?&forward=1
    Ideal 52 series: http://idealvalve.thomasnet.com/view...ves?&forward=1

    I've also used the Swagelok "M" series metering valves.The "M" series has been reported only offer control over about a 1/4 turn range. It seems the "S" series Swagelok valves would be a better choice for our use.
    Swagelok metering valves - description pdf: http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/we.../MS-01-142.pdf
    "M" series discussion: http://www.barrreport.com/showthread...ment-questions
    Swagelok metering valves - catalog: http://www.swagelok.com/search/find_...0000276/type-1

  • #2
    I would definitely like to see some more discussion on this.

    It is my experience that the Swageloc medium flow series is indeed too high a flow range for all but the largest aquariums. It will work for smaller ones but the low-flow range would be much better. I'd like to see some links to those valves for sale though and common prices- retail & ebay.
    Last edited by Oreo; 06-17-2010, 01:00 AM.
    "Do, then talk about it.
    No do? No talk!!" - Tom Barr

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    • #3
      The link at the end of this paragraph shows all the Swagelok " Low-Flow Metering Valves, Cv up to 0.004" shown in their catalog. There are many others that have been manufactured that aren't listed, but they can be made or you will see them for sale. Also, some may have different fittings, different handles, different seals, etc that I didn't list. These are ones with Ethylene Propylene O-Rings, Kalrez O-Rings, Double Pattern Metering Valves, Swagelok VCR Metal Gasket Face Seal Fittings, Adjustable-Torque Slotted Handles, etc: http://www.swagelok.com/search/find_...0002278/type-1

      1/8" Silver-Mist Chrome-Plated Brass
      • List Price $103.43 B-SM2-A: Brass Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/8 in. MNPT
      • List Price $83.54 B-SM2-S2-A: Brass Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/8 in. MNPT x 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting
      • List Price $75.03 B-SS2: Brass Low-Flow Metering Valve, 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting
      • List Price $67.76 B-SS2-A: Brass Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting
      • List Price (ASK FOR QUOTE) B-SS2-A-SL: Brass Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting, Slotted Handle
      • List Price $110.40 B-SS2-VH: Brass Low-Flow Metering Valve, 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting, Vernier Handle

      1/4" Silver-Mist Chrome-Plated Brass
      • List Price $77.08 B-SS4: Brass Low-Flow Metering Valve, 1/4 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting
      • List Price $66.42 B-SS4-A: Brass Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/4 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting
      • List Price $112.96 B-SS4-VH: Brass Low-Flow Metering Valve, 1/4 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting, Vernier Handle


      1/8" 316 Stainless Steel
      • List Price $123.41 SS-SS2: SS Low-Flow Metering Valve, 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting
      • List Price $111.73 SS-SS2-A: SS Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting
      • List Price $149.14 SS-SS2-SC11: SS Low-Flow Metering Valve, 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting, SC-11 Cleaned
      • List Price $148.32 SS-SS2-A-VH: SS Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting, Vernier Handle
      • List Price $140.94 SS-SS2-VH: SS Low-Flow Metering Valve, 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting, Vernier Handle
      1/4" 316 Stainless Steel
      • List Price $127.10 SS-SS4: SS Low-Flow Metering Valve, 1/4 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting
      • List Price $109.58 SS-SS4-A: SS Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/4 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting
      • List Price $145.76 SS-SS4-A-VH: SS Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/4 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting, Vernier Handle
      • List Price $161.3 4 SS-SS4-SL: SS Low-Flow Metering Valve, 1/4 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting, Slotted Handle
      • List Price $144.63 SS-SS4-VH: SS Low-Flow Metering Valve, 1/4 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting, Vernier Handle

      Did you notice that all but two of these have Swagelok tubing fittings? There is one with two 1/8" MNPT fittings. Another has one 1/8" MPT and a 1/8" tubing fitting at the upper end of this angle shaped valve. They are:
      • List Price $103.43 B-SM2-A: Brass Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/8 in. MNPT
      • List Price $83.54 B-SM2-S2-A: Brass Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/8 in. MNPT x 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting
      Last edited by Left C; 06-17-2010, 06:16 PM. Reason: added prices and bullets

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      • #4
        Thanks for the info. Left C. I just realized that I work a few blocks aways from one of their distribution centers. I'll check if they do walk-in sales. I could save on shipping.
        Carbon, it there something it cannot do?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by argnom View Post
          Thanks for the info. Left C. I just realized that I work a few blocks aways from one of their distribution centers. I'll check if they do walk-in sales. I could save on shipping.
          Are you going to get one of their metering valves?

          I'm wondering how well either of the following valves will work.
          List Price $103.43 B-SM2-A: Brass Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/8 in. MNPT
          List Price $83.54 B-SM2-S2-A: Brass Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/8 in. MNPT x 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting

          Comment


          • #6
            Yep, but I'll wait a couple of months, I just stated a new job and the finances are a little low these days so I have to be carefull... If I can get a better price than retail, I'll let you guys know. I could always pick them up. I'll keep everybody posted.

            I really do not know what model I'll get, but I'm certain that somebody over there will know their stuff and be able to tell me what model will work the best for our use.

            Cheers!
            Carbon, it there something it cannot do?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Oreo View Post
              ... I'd like to see some links to those valves for sale though and common prices- retail & ebay.
              I added the list prices to the Swagelok metering valves today.
              Last edited by Left C; 06-17-2010, 06:36 PM.

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              • #8
                Im glad this thread was open. I can go looking for dual stage regulators on Ebay and know which one would work. But not on metering valves.

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                • #9
                  I've just ordered a low flow B-SS6MM (Brass Low-Flow Metering Valve, 6 mm Swagelok Tube Fitting) for my second CO2 output to my second AM1000. Hopefully all parts will fit and nicer flow control is provided. Keep you guys updated.
                  Cheers, Koen.
                  My tank site (for dutchies)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Here is a link I found with Needle/Metering valve recommendations: http://webpages.charter.net/bobalsto...mendations.htm
                    18g - Otocinclus sp.
                    16g bowfront - T. albonubes "gold", A. dolichopterus, Ps. gertrudae "Aru II"
                    20g long - P. axelrodi, C. macracanthus, H. ocellifer, T. albonubes "gold", Stiphodon sp., Sailfin mollies
                    300g RST - N. fuscotaeniatus, P. taeniolatus, Ps. acei, Cyno sp. "hara", L. caeruleus, S. petricola

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      A fins' thread that I remember reading a year or two ago is one that is on the list in the thread above. It's: http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plant.../msg00174.html

                      In this post it says: "... The Nupro valve you have listed is not the smallest one they have available. The one you have listed, they quote as being their "M series" valve and have a max Cv rating of 0.03. This rating is like the equivalent of resistance. Which, according to their data sheet, translates to a flow rate of 1.2 cubic feet per minute when connected to an inlet pressure of 2 bar (35psig). ...

                      They do have a smaller valve, which is listed as being the "S series". This has a max Cv rating of 0.004, which at the same inlet pressure of 2 bar (35psig), translates to a maximum flow rate of 0.15 cubic feet per minute. This valve has a number of turns till open of 8-12.

                      The version I bought is (a "S" series) labeled as B-SS4 (The B stands for brass and the 4 stands for 1/4") The 1/8" version is labeled as B-SS2.

                      The valve comes standard with fine adjustment handle, but the vernier to go with it, adds a -VH to the labeling, so the one I bought is then labeled B-SS4-VH.

                      The version you refer to is labeled B-4MG, which is a 1/4" fitting version of the "M series", a 1/8" version of the same is labeled B-2MG. Again, adding a -VH turns it into the vernier version.

                      The valve is fantastic, allowing me total extremely fine control over my CO2 flow rate. I can wind the rate from about 1 bubble every 5 minutes, to about 4-5 bubbles a second, linearly, if the inlet pressure remains constant.

                      Changing the inlet pressure allows me a greater control range. ..."

                      It's hard reading, but the author, Marque Crozman, is actually praising the "S" series B-SS4-VH and not the "M" series B-2MG. Many people praised the "S" series. See 3) in the "Aquarium Needle/Metering Valve Recommendations" above.

                      In some of the other articles in the same thread, some people liked the "M" series and some didn't. See 7) in Other Valves in the thread. This seems to fit with what many of us experienced.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Parker hr series metering valves

                        In the link that S&KGray posted, Parker HR series metering valves were mentioned as being very good. I made a simple list of their descriptions and specs found on Parker's site. I noted what I thought might work or not, but I'm not sure. I need everyone's help making this list as accurate as we can make it. If you have any thoughts, please post them. The flow rate section (I guessed here) and the stem seal/packing section (I don't know what seal mediums work with pressurized CO2.) really need some help.



                        PARKER METERING VALVES (HR SERIES) 4170-HR: http://www.parker.com/portal/site/PA...&from=&pageno=

                        The Parker HR Series Metering Valve offers the highest degree of precision metering for moderate pressure applications.

                        A choice of seven precision ground, tapered flat, non-rotating and non-rising valve stems enable repeatable metering at flow capacities as low as 0.0004 Cv. With up to 15 stem turns to reach the maximum flow capacity of these seven orifice sizes, this valve offers the ultimate in precision flow control. This series also features shut-off capability not found in most metering valves.

                        These screwed bonnet designs are manufactured from stainless steel or brass forgings and are provided with stem seals below the stem threads to isolate the system media from the thread lubricant.

                        A choice of knurled plastic knobs, turns counter knobs, and screwdriver slotted stems are available.

                        The valves can be provided in both inline and angle patterns and can accommodate tubing sizes from 1/16 inch up to 1/4 inch.

                        A variety of US Customary and SI port connections, including CPI™ and A-LOK® compression, and female and male NPT are available.

                        SPECIFICATIONS

                        PRESSURE RATING
                        250 PSIG (17 BAR) – ONLY CHOICE AVAILABLE

                        CONFIGURATION
                        INLINE – OK
                        ANGLE – OK

                        FLOW RATE
                        CV = 0.0004 > VERY GOOD ? NOT SURE ??
                        CV = 0.0070 > VERY GOOD
                        CV = 0.0140 > OK
                        CV = 0.0200 > OK ?
                        CV = 0.0210 > OK ?
                        CV = 0.0300 > PROBABLY TOO HIGH ?
                        CV = 0.0320 > PROBABLY TOO HIGH ?
                        CV = 0.0470 > TOO HIGH
                        CV = 0.0490 > TOO HIGH
                        CV = 0.1180 > TOO HIGH
                        CV = 0.1550 > TOO HIGH

                        INLET SIZE
                        1/8” – USED MOST OFTEN
                        1/4” – OK

                        INLET CONNECTION
                        SINGLE FERRULE COMPRESSION
                        DOUBLE FERRULE COMPRESSION
                        MALE GASKET FACE SEAL
                        FNPT
                        MNPT

                        OUTLET SIZE
                        1/8” – USED MOST OFTEN
                        1/4” – OK

                        OUTLET CONNECTION
                        SINGLE FERRULE COMPRESSION
                        DOUBLE FERRULE COMPRESSION
                        MALE GASKET FACE SEAL
                        FNPT
                        MNPT

                        STEM TYPE
                        0
                        1
                        2
                        3
                        4
                        5
                        6

                        STEM SEAL/PACKING
                        ETHYLENE PROPYLENE RUBBER > ?
                        FLUOROCARBON RUBBER > ?
                        ETHYLENE PROPYLENE RUBBER > ?
                        BUNA-N RUBBER > GOOD ?
                        HIGHLY FLUORINATED FLUOROCARBON RUBBER > ?

                        BODY MATERIAL
                        BRASS - OK
                        STAINLESS STEEL - OK

                        OPERATED
                        KNURLED - OK
                        SLOTTED STEM - OK
                        TURNS COUNTER - BEST

                        TEMPERATURE RATING
                        -25 F TO 200 F (-32 C TO 93 C)
                        -25 F TO 400 F (-32 C TO 204 C)
                        -50 F TO 300 F (-47 C TO 149 C) - BEST

                        ADDITIONAL DETAIL
                        CLEANED FOR OXYGEN SERVICE – OK, BUT NOT NECESSARY FOR CO2 USE

                        SYNONYM
                        METERING VALVE

                        PRODUCT TYPE
                        Valve, Process Needle, Metering
                        Last edited by Left C; 06-20-2010, 07:55 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Here are some links with info on the Parker HR series precision metering valves:

                          http://www.plesner.as/mod/products/upload/4170-HR.pdf

                          http://www.hydraulicsystem.com/pdf_p...g%20Valves.pdf
                          18g - Otocinclus sp.
                          16g bowfront - T. albonubes "gold", A. dolichopterus, Ps. gertrudae "Aru II"
                          20g long - P. axelrodi, C. macracanthus, H. ocellifer, T. albonubes "gold", Stiphodon sp., Sailfin mollies
                          300g RST - N. fuscotaeniatus, P. taeniolatus, Ps. acei, Cyno sp. "hara", L. caeruleus, S. petricola

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                          • #14
                            Thanks a bunch!

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                            • #15
                              Swagelok regs - Cv, vave sizing, calcsl - Cv calculator - Swagelok metering valves

                              I was looking for some added info and I found some new (to me, anyway) goodies ... Swagelok regs! They even have two stage models and high sensitivity models and more. Also, I found some good technical info from Swagelok's site. The metering valve info isn't new, but I included it here.

                              Swagelok regs: http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/we.../MS-02-230.PDF

                              Valve sizing, flow calculation and Cv: http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/we...N/MS-06-84.pdf

                              Cv calculator: http://www.swagelok.com/tools/CV_Calculator.aspx

                              Swagelow metering valves: http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/we.../MS-01-142.pdf

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