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  • Problem with plants (chlorosis,brown leaves,twisted tips)

    Hi,

    I've had problems with plants growth for some time now.

    Rotala macrandra, rotoundifolia and hemianthus micranthemoides have twisted tips.









    Sagitaria Subulatta still shows interveinal chlorosis.




    Hygrogophilia angustifolia has brown leaves.

    http://lh6.ggpht.com/_dui4kzd4O4A/SX...0/IMG_5189.jpg click on the link


    Tank: 250l(100*50*50)
    Lighting: 3*39W T5 (
    Water: RO water mixed with tap 1:1
    Substrate: Plain gravel

    Water parameters
    KH ~ 3
    GH ~ 4
    Co2: >30 ppm
    NO3:10 ppm
    PO4:1 ppm

    I dose 10 ml TMG weekly.

    Did you encounter such symptoms and find their cause ?

    P.S. Tom, it's not too little CO2/NO3/PO4. I examined CO2 and high dosages of KNO3 and KH2PO4 many a time but without good results

  • #2
    10mls of TMG weekly?

    Or daily?

    Those are still classic poor CO2 symptoms, smaller progressive tips and stunted tips.
    Few things will do that.

    Low NO3 might be the only other thing.

    I'm not so interested in the ppm's, rather, what you are dosing, that's a lot of light for the tank with plain gravel, so I'd add 20ppm per week at least of NO3, 2-3ppm of PO4, 10mls per day of the traces............

    Then the rest is CO2.
    Also, you might add some GH booster as a pre caution for Mg or add MhSO4 if the GH is mostly Ca.

    Otherwise, you are left with CO2.
    There's no other reason for the R indica lookign that way than CO2, I've gone all over the place for nutrients with that plant without any such issues, unless...........it was CO2.

    Don't be so sure of yourself there with CO2 being "good"========> ever.
    Always suspect it if things are funny, or not quite right. Ruling out nutrients can be relatively easy. CO2 is not.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
    www.BarrReport.com

    Comment


    • #3
      I dose 10 ml TMG daily.

      I check CO2 by means of KH/PH relationship. I also have CO2 indicator
      installed which color is light-green (it's almost yellow). To make
      sure I've measured KH and pH today. During pH measurement i read pH
      6.5 and KH 3 which means there is 30 ppm CO2. Taking into account the
      two measurements (the indicator and KH/pH relationship) it follows
      that I have enough CO2. Despite the measurements I increased CO2 to
      such an extent that some fish died but plant's health didn't improve.
      I also checked CO2 vs. water level in the tank by putting the CO2
      indicator at different distances from the tank bottom and it was found
      that CO2 was the same.I installed an additional pump in the tank to
      improve water movement.

      The only method to prevent tips stunting is to decrease NO3 dosage. It
      seems to me that whenever I lower NO3 the plants are limited and tips
      are not stunted. As soon as I add more NO3 (so the plants begin to
      grow faster and the demand for other nutrients is higher) the problems
      with the growth are on the rise again. In my opinion something is
      missing but despite many attempts to dose different ferts (micro) I've
      been unable to find missing nutrient for many months now.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi!

        Yours symptoms resembele mine. I've had stunted tips of H. micrathemoides and they looked tha same.
        My current pH measurement also shows 6.5 and my KH is 6.7 (water dep. info). This means I have 63ppm CO2 and also shows that my readings are NOT reliable (fish are fine).

        My problem solved increasing NO3 daily dosage.

        You said you've increased CO2 to the lethal levels. Have you increased NO3 also at that time?
        I think you have low levels of NO3&CO2. Both might be at limiting levels.
        Adding more NO3 you get stunted tips because of CO2 becoming limiting factor and vice versa.
        Leaner NO3 => lower CO2 demand - better (but not best possible) growth in your case.

        Cheers

        Comment


        • #5
          Let me put another way, I have the same species showing the same patterns in a tank not long ago and it was entirely CO2. I dose EI, did 2x a week 70% water changes, so the nutrients had to be well stabilized.

          I add about 2 teaspoons to a 120 Gal tank 3x a week of KNO3(about 45ppm added per week of NO3). I also had about 120 micromols of light , fairly high.
          The issue was a leak in the wet/dry filter seal that kept off gassing the CO2.
          That took care of things and now the plants grow much larger at the tips and much lusher growth, more pearling etc etc etc.

          Progressively smaller tips and stunted tips is most often CO2.
          You should not assume the CO2 is 30ppm based on the pH/KH.
          Just do not do it. I have ADA tanks that suggest 200ppm based on that pH/KH and yet things are fine with fish and shrimp. If I wanted 30ppm based on that, I'd be way way off.

          You need to be careful when dosing CO2, you should never lose any fish, if you do, it's because you are not watching the aquarium and leave for a few hours and come back after being impatient, or you simply do not have enough circulation in the tank for the O2.

          It needs done slowly and then you need to give time for the plants to recover(folks generally do not do this part, particularly if they gas their fish).

          If you think it's really low NO3, how is it that I can grow these plants just fine with high NO3?

          Can you explain this?
          How can I grow all these same plants at 20-30ppm of NO3? How can others?
          Can you offer any reasoning why that might be?
          I can tell you it's not a direct relationship with NO3. If it was, I'd have to had seen these with these same plants.

          It has to be some other secondary/indirect effect.
          You can also lower the light and that will help the CO2 issue and or/ nutrient issue. The other thing here is that you provide only measurements from your tank water, are these calibrated test kits and are these the same numbers you always have had during this time? That seems very unlikely and I can look down those plant stems and see some dramatic changes.

          How much KNO3 and at what frequency are you adding KNO3, GH booster, K+, KH2PO4, etc?

          I know the TMG dosing, but little else. I can keep large adult Discus without issues at 45ppm over long time frames using very accurate dissolved CO2 meters, so I know people can add more CO2 than 30ppm without health issues for fish.. The issue is making sure they really have 30 ppm over the time frame(day cycle) and each day consistently.

          Poor test methods(not your fault etc) cause a lot of issues for many particularly for nutrients like NO3 and PO4, but very much so for CO2, arguly the largest variant in any planted tank.

          I've been down this road dozens of times, and thought and seen the same things as you, but later I found a counter example where I knew it could not had been what I once thought, so I went back and lo and behold, it was CO2, or not enough something, or the guy had a bad test kit.poor user methods etc/limited some other nutrients, had too much light etc.

          Your test kits are not infallible.
          You have to confirm they are accurate and precision over the range of interest, same for the CO2.

          Plants do not lie, and your look so much like the plants I've seen over the years with poor CO2, high light, it's much more about the plant's as test kits, than any reading/ppms etc.

          You cannot assume the test kits are right unless you have good methods and calibrate it. You also have the issue of others keeping these same plants without issues at high NO3.........

          There is not some new discovery here of some special limited deficient nutrient/s, it's far more likely that there's an error in the test methods and readings.

          Nutrients are very easy to rule out, but you should not assume the test kits are going to give you accurate readings, just add the nutrients directly and flush the system(much less work) to keep them stable over a range, then you can measure light with a PAR meter and then all that's left really is CO2.

          THAT NEEDS ADJUSTED SLOWLY AND PROGRESSIVELY. OBSERVE AFTER A FEW DAYS ETC.

          Never harm a fish doing this.
          You should never have to do that to get good CO2 for a tank.

          Try reducing light also. R macrandra is really a low light plant.

          Regards,
          Tom Barr










          You are really opening yourself up to relying too heavily on test kits and readings by assuming they are correct. They might be, but I'm not sure about it.
          www.BarrReport.com

          Comment


          • #6
            I agree with Tom, i wanted to believe that my CO2 was fabulous all the time because the drop checker stayed green yada yada so i kept increasing my dosages. I got to 80ppm NO3 before i realized what a bone head i was... I slowly increased my co2 over a few day period and BINGO the plants took off with only 2wpg lights. They are doing so well that after a week i have a foot long set of glosso runners. I had to trim my ludwiga into a small garden because the shoots were hitting the top and going horizontal. My sunset has to be trimmed almost daily, and my cabomba is out of control..
            I would trust Tom and bump the co2 up, but dont crank it to were it kills the little guys...

            Also if you crank it and are still not seeing results, check your flow rate. That is the number 1 killer of good co2 levels, if the concentration is not dispersed you are wasting co2.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ccLansman View Post
              I agree with Tom, i wanted to believe that my CO2 was fabulous all the time because the drop checker stayed green yada yada so i kept increasing my dosages. I got to 80ppm NO3 before i realized what a bone head i was... I slowly increased my co2 over a few day period and BINGO the plants took off with only 2wpg lights. They are doing so well that after a week i have a foot long set of glosso runners. I had to trim my ludwiga into a small garden because the shoots were hitting the top and going horizontal. My sunset has to be trimmed almost daily, and my cabomba is out of control..
              I would trust Tom and bump the co2 up, but dont crank it to were it kills the little guys...

              Also if you crank it and are still not seeing results, check your flow rate. That is the number 1 killer of good co2 levels, if the concentration is not dispersed you are wasting co2.
              Very true, we all do this time to time.
              How do I avoid it?

              Well, I have several tanks and am dosing the same, doing large water changes and often the tanks will respond differently, I can measure the light etc, even the same plant from the same clonal daughter plants can be placed in these two tanks and get different response, massively different.

              I know is cannot be due to nutrients, the light I can adjust to be the same, they are the same bulbs as well. Not much else left at that point.

              Regards,
              Tom Barr
              www.BarrReport.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Arturs,

                have you checked for Mg? If you're using tap low in magnesium and dilute it 1:1 with RO your plants might have run out of Mg. Just an idea.......

                Best regards,
                Detlef

                Comment


                • #9
                  In my case the cause of twisted tips is not CO2 level. The tank is injected with CO2 for 24 hours. Today there was pH = 6 before the lights went on; at KH = 3 it is quite a lot CO2. Before the lights went off pH was 6.4 Additionally i measured CO2 in the morning and left the sample with water beside the tank and pH rose to 7.8 in a few hours. If there had been too little CO2 the pH wouldn't have changed in the course of several hours. This is another proof i had plenty of CO2 in the tank unless you're able to explain the fact in different way ?

                  Because CO2 is dosed for 24h pH changes dramatically; there are big differences during the night and day (the plants don't absorb CO2 at night and pH drops significantly.I'm not sure if such fluctuations harm the plants (perhaps it is the cause of the problems). Also, I'm not sure why some Rotalas Rotundifolia that grow side by side don't show such symptoms. Most often some of them are twisted but others grow properly.
                  Maybe high CO2 level kept for a longer time is harmful to plants. Following MARKIS's advice I increased NO3 but the more I add to the tank the less intense pearling I get. Yesterday I added 10 ppm NO3 from KNO3 and 1 ppm PO4 from KH2PO4 and the very next day I saw first bubbles produced by the plants only after 2 hours since the lights have been turned on.

                  I brought sample of water from my tank to the laboratory. I will have the results in a few days. They will measure the salinity, N-NO3,P,K,Ca,Mg,Cl,Cu,Zn,Mn,Fe,B.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    If you were dosing about 30 ppm of CO2 during the day, the concentration would go up enough at night for the fish to be harmed. Is that happening? Can you get a drop checker cheaply? If so, it is well worth the expense, even if you soon remove it from the tank and just store it. At least you will then have a better feel for the bubble rate it takes to get good CO2 in the water.
                    Hoppy

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Arturs View Post
                      In my case the cause of twisted tips is not CO2 level. The tank is injected with CO2 for 24 hours. Today there was pH = 6 before the lights went on; at KH = 3 it is quite a lot CO2. Before the lights went off pH was 6.4 Additionally i measured CO2 in the morning and left the sample with water beside the tank and pH rose to 7.8 in a few hours. If there had been too little CO2 the pH wouldn't have changed in the course of several hours. This is another proof i had plenty of CO2 in the tank unless you're able to explain the fact in different way ?
                      I have a pH of 5.8 and a KH of 2, I still may not have enough CO2, the peat in the ADA AS and wood lower the pH, but does not add CO2.

                      When I add more, then I have no such issues, you are relying very heavily, I would say too much so, on the pH/KH relationship.

                      This is not proof of the CO2 content.

                      Rather than spending $ and time worrying about the other items, I'd focus on this, regardless of test kits, those plants look very very much like classic CO2 issues. Plants do not lie, assumptions about test and no reference calibration for the CO2 measure is really guessing at best.

                      [/quote]
                      Because CO2 is dosed for 24h pH changes dramatically; there are big differences during the night and day (the plants don't absorb CO2 at night and pH drops significantly.I'm not sure if such fluctuations harm the plants (perhaps it is the cause of the problems).
                      [/quote]

                      No harm to plants, however, fish, yes.
                      Why add it at night?

                      Also if the CO2 delivery and injection rate is good, you should not see that dramatic difference. You can also add much more CO2 only when you need it if you add it only during the light cycle(10 hours vs 24) since most of the 24 hours the fish do not have high CO2, and when they do have it, they also have high O2 from the plants. Add good flow to the CO2 region and make sure it gets blasted around good in the tank.

                      Shut it off at night, not for the plants, but for the fish, this will let you add more without any issues to the fish during the day for the plants.

                      Also, I'm not sure why some Rotalas Rotundifolia that grow side by side don't show such symptoms. Most often some of them are twisted but others grow properly.
                      This is the smoking gun..........
                      So's the pearl weed...........

                      What happens when the CO2 is slightly limiting?
                      Do you think plants can compete with each other for nutrients?
                      How about CO2?

                      This is one of the most common things plants compete with one another for in natural systems and this(stunted tips) is what we see in such systems.

                      Maybe high CO2 level kept for a longer time is harmful to plants. Following MARKIS's advice I increased NO3 but the more I add to the tank the less intense pearling I get. Yesterday I added 10 ppm NO3 from KNO3 and 1 ppm PO4 from KH2PO4 and the very next day I saw first bubbles produced by the plants only after 2 hours since the lights have been turned on.
                      This is also a sign of poor CO2.
                      If you rule out other nutrients like PO4, NO3 etc, and light, you are going to have more CO2 demand, so less pearling, because now you are more strongly CO2 limited vs if you limited say PO4 mildly............which reduces CO2 demand.;

                      The root here is still CO2, you just made the nutrients like NO3 etc independent, so you are only left with CO2.

                      I brought sample of water from my tank to the laboratory. I will have the results in a few days. They will measure the salinity, N-NO3,P,K,Ca,Mg,Cl,Cu,Zn,Mn,Fe,B.
                      Copper in pipes might be the only other thing etc, but otherwise, it's CO2.

                      Cu and other thigns would hurt all the plants, not just some, whereas low CO2 will show exactly what you are seeing.

                      Turn it off during the night, then add more during the day, less stress to fish, more CO2 for the plants.

                      Safer for everyone.

                      Regards,
                      Tom Barr
                      www.BarrReport.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tom Barr View Post
                        I have a pH of 5.8 and a KH of 2, I still may not have enough CO2, the peat in the ADA AS and wood lower the pH, but does not add CO2.
                        When I add more, then I have no such issues, you are relying very heavily, I would say too much so, on the pH/KH relationship
                        In case of ADA substrate and other ones which include peat, checking CO2 by means of KH/pH relationship is incorrect. In my opinion the KH/pH relationship is valid when we use plain gravel in a tank(without peat etc.). We also should not dose other preparates which can have effect on pH(If we want to chceck CO2 by means of KH/pH relationship).
                        It is necessary to use drop checker in aquarium with ADA substrate because measurment CO2 is not dependent on salts dissolved in the water in aquarium.(drop-checker color depends on level of dissolved CO2 in the tank water only).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Arturs

                          Just a different thought. Can lack of Ca resulting in this problem? I think Detlef was pointing out earlier that the reason may be lack of Mg. This kind of tallies with your low GH levels too.

                          I am making this comment as the symptoms shown by your plants are kind of similar to those Ca deficiency symtpom described by Mr. Paul Krombholz in the "Krib".

                          Please look into this article:

                          Nutrient Deficiency

                          May be a wild guess but thought of sharing the information.

                          Regards,

                          Gautam

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Arturs View Post
                            In case of ADA substrate and other ones which include peat, checking CO2 by means of KH/pH relationship is incorrect. In my opinion the KH/pH relationship is valid when we use plain gravel in a tank(without peat etc.). We also should not dose other preparates which can have effect on pH(If we want to chceck CO2 by means of KH/pH relationship).
                            It is necessary to use drop checker in aquarium with ADA substrate because measurment CO2 is not dependent on salts dissolved in the water in aquarium.(drop-checker color depends on level of dissolved CO2 in the tank water only).
                            Then how might you explain Matpat's 200ppm range of CO2 yet fish are fine?
                            He uses tap and the pH meter is calibrated correctly, the KH test kit is as well, and the sediment is Eco complete, which has no impact on KH/CO2.

                            Tap can have other things that influence pH and KH readings in the test kits.

                            This is why the drop checker tends to be popular, it gives up the accuracy pH and there's a lag of about 2-3 hours, but gets away from any interferences in the water for pH and KH.

                            You can have PO4's causing issues that are added to tap etc, even if these do not give you extreme examples like Matpat's, even 20% off on the low end would have folks adding 20-30% less than they think they are adding.

                            You do not know what the CO2 really is(most of us really do not directly), but you seem to think that you do. I don't either without a nice piece of $$ equipment oir a complex DIY set up.

                            But since a client has the CO2 meter, I can simply observe and verify.
                            If you do large massive frequent water changes with RO water and reconstitute it, then the pH/KH level should be pretty consistent. I can also verify indirectly by manipulating the CO2 and getting precisely the same response with less CO2 as you see with your plants.

                            I have and can dose these same ppm's of nutrients and do not have such responses from plants. Give these two things, even without a CO2 ppm reading, I know and can falsify that it's a nutrient issue, rather, much more likely a CO2 issue. I've heard this and seen before many many times, and had plenty of folks say the same things that you have here, this is not a new issue you alone have seen.

                            It is easy to rule out nutrient causes, we know what they are.
                            They are much easier to test.
                            You can also make reference solutions and should, to show that the test readings for the ppms are correct as well as knowing you have at least the ppm's based on adding a known weight to to a known volume of water.

                            We can measure light pretty well.

                            This just leaves CO2 as the main variable and it's not as easy as you seem to think to measure it confidently. You are not going to get anywhere and get at the root issue here until you address that.

                            Plants grow well for only a few reasons/variable, CO2 light and nutrients.
                            As long as filters are clean, etc other basic stuff(often these can be over looked), those are what you have to work with. I have these same plants and do not have these issues unless the CO2 tank runs out. Then I get similar issues on the same species at the client's. Light and Nutrients are/where the same, only the CO2 changed. Smaller stunted tips, if it's strong CO2 issue, then BBA, some species melt, some stunt, BGA maybe, Hair algae etc. It's not hard to add a bit more CO2 and dose and do large water changes for the next 2-3 weeks or so. Then you can see.

                            You have wide ranging issues in the tank with many species and then only some plants. What else could do this?

                            I know of nothing.

                            And if the plants had been doing fine, prior, and you did "not change anything", then it's virtually always going to be CO2.

                            Nutrients can be added and stabilized easily. CO2 not always.
                            Also, as plants grow more, more biomass they also have more CO2 demand from the water. If CO2 is slightly limiting, then some will grow well, others will stunt.
                            As you add more biomass, you end up with some stunted, some not.
                            The plant sacrifices some so that the others will grow and hopefully make it to the top and flower etc.

                            Regards,
                            Tom Barr
                            www.BarrReport.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Gautam View Post
                              Hi Arturs

                              Just a different thought. Can lack of Ca resulting in this problem? I think Detlef was pointing out earlier that the reason may be lack of Mg. This kind of tallies with your low GH levels too.

                              I am making this comment as the symptoms shown by your plants are kind of similar to those Ca deficiency symtpom described by Mr. Paul Krombholz in the "Krib".

                              Please look into this article:

                              Nutrient Deficiency

                              May be a wild guess but thought of sharing the information.

                              Regards,

                              Gautam
                              Having used RO and super soft water, SF has very soft water etc, as well as we do here, all sierra snow melt from granitic water sheds. We have never seen not true Ca++ deficient plants to date. I know it can occur, but I've yet to see it.

                              My guess is that it needs to very very low to cause issues. GH booster can easily rule any of that out.

                              This is a CO2 issue,. not Ca or K+ etc.
                              Whether or not they believe it, really is up to them, I can and have ruled out nutrient excess or limitations and offered a method to easily address those.

                              The rest is up to the poster to convince themselves of the issue.
                              Same debates etc over the same well worn topics. Where is my stunted tips?
                              I can easily add and rule out nutrients, and measure my light, not much left then, add a lot of CO2 tank issues over the years, many other folks adding the same nutrients without such issues, and always seemingly to come back to CO2......you get a good feel for it.

                              So there's a way to convince yourself and make sure. Many think these same things, this is not new. It's an old comment made many times before.

                              Regards,
                              Tom Barr
                              www.BarrReport.com

                              Comment

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