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  • #16
    It Just Drops Out

    Hi,

    The fact is that CaSO4 is not particularly soluble in water.

    A couple of grams of Barr’s GH Booster in 300-ml of water really does not dissolve.

    The reason we get away with it is we are dropping a few grams into dozens or hundreds of liters of water. Even so, it takes a while to get into the water column and a good percentage ends up in the sediment.

    Calcium even when dosed as something soluble such as CaCl 2 or Ca(NO3)2 tends to end up in the sediment fairly quickly, in part due to its affinity for sulfate, which most aquariums have in excess.

    Biollante

    Last edited by Biollante; 02-20-2012, 07:37 PM. Reason: Format& in water
    The first sign we don't know what we are doing is an obsession with numbers. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

    Disclaimer: I am not trying to make you mad, it is just what I am, an evil plant monster, 'nuf said.
    • I believe the information I am giving is sound, I am not a veterinarian, professional chemist or particularly bright and certainly not a "Guru.".
    • I assume you are of legal age, competent and it is legal for you to acquire, possess and use any materials or perform any action in your in your jurisdiction.
    • When in doubt "don't."

    Comment


    • #17
      to give my 2 cents:

      I do think that something like spezial N can be a good thing. I didn't do the math, but by using full EI the conductivity of my tank gets easy into 700-800 uS. Also, using KNO3 my K levels are rising during the week and are around 20-50 mg/l. By replacing K for Mg and Ca one can add less salts in total (less conductivity) and still have the necessary elements in sufficient amounts.

      greets,

      yme

      Comment


      • #18
        Interesting, But To What Purpose?

        Originally posted by yme View Post
        to give my 2 cents:

        I do think that something like spezial N can be a good thing. I didn't do the math, but by using full EI the conductivity of my tank gets easy into 700-800 uS. Also, using KNO3 my K levels are rising during the week and are around 20-50 mg/l. By replacing K for Mg and Ca one can add less salts in total (less conductivity) and still have the necessary elements in sufficient amounts.
        greets, yme
        Hi,

        I did a little quick arithmetic and it appears that this does reduce TDS by maybe 130-ppm (203-µS/cm).

        I am not sure what this means for plant growth, but it is interesting.
        :nonchalance:

        Biollante


        The first sign we don't know what we are doing is an obsession with numbers. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

        Disclaimer: I am not trying to make you mad, it is just what I am, an evil plant monster, 'nuf said.
        • I believe the information I am giving is sound, I am not a veterinarian, professional chemist or particularly bright and certainly not a "Guru.".
        • I assume you are of legal age, competent and it is legal for you to acquire, possess and use any materials or perform any action in your in your jurisdiction.
        • When in doubt "don't."

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by yme View Post
          to give my 2 cents:

          I do think that something like spezial N can be a good thing. I didn't do the math, but by using full EI the conductivity of my tank gets easy into 700-800 uS. Also, using KNO3 my K levels are rising during the week and are around 20-50 mg/l. By replacing K for Mg and Ca one can add less salts in total (less conductivity) and still have the necessary elements in sufficient amounts.

          greets,

          yme
          My Conductivity stays around 300uS..........and goes up about 200uS after dosing, so it starts around 100Us, a tad less etc,...........then I add the ferts.

          My K+ is about 30-50ppm a week.

          You can see the 120 gal tank, the 180, the 60's, the 90, the 350, the 1600, the 20, the 70's, the 20's.
          I do not have any issues I can relate to it.

          Hydroponic solutions are much higher conductivity and this is what is used to grow plants at Tropica.
          Salinity stress(which is what you are implying by suggesting Conductivity) really does not occur till it is much higher and then............much more due to Na+, than K+.
          I'd like to hear what negative effects K+ does and over a specific ppm range, I've not heard anything specific about the benefits of the before and or after effects.

          Still, it is EASY to test and see if such claims hold water.
          If it is only the K+, we can add more of that and see while maintaining the other ions.

          But you need to have the plants growing and doing well before hand, then add moire K+ or add less of something else etc.
          SO4's really have little to do with it till they become limiting, which is near impossible in FW tanks.
          Tap water is loaded with SO4. Unless you use a lot of RO, you likely have plenty of that one.

          Many people really larded on K+ during the PMDD days, people were telling others to add more K+ for nearly any issue. It was nuts.
          I suggested that you did not need to add K2SO4 to PMDD since you got more than enough from KNO3 alone.

          Which is also true.

          So a GH booster could be modified to have just CaSO4/MgSO4 or a mix of MgCl2/CaCl2 or sub Ca(NO3)2 and Mg(NO3)2.
          But it has little to do with Nitrogen. It's really an issue of folks not adding enough GH, not K+.

          I use Ca(NO3)2 and Mg(NO3)2 for my reef tanks. K+ is a non issue there but Ca and Mg are much more important.
          For freshwater tanks, good stable K+/Ca/Mg, might be a key for some people and the special N might get them to do that, but in and of themselves, I've not found some special dosing that effective, unless....something was limiting.
          You add enough ferts........and that's enough, if you miss a day, no big deal, as long as you are somewhat consistent etc. I've not found them that important as long as you add some (over a wide range).
          www.BarrReport.com

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Biollante View Post
            Hi,

            I did a little quick arithmetic and it appears that this does reduce TDS by maybe 130-ppm (203-µS/cm).

            I am not sure what this means for plant growth, but it is interesting.
            :nonchalance:

            Biollante


            Well, you can modify that further if you want.

            And RO water can be used more/less etc, to pick/chose some TDS/Conductivity range.

            If your plants lose a lot of leaves because say.........your CO2 tank ran out............this will increase the Conductivity quite a bit, 300-400 uS last time this happened on my 180.
            So poor growth, issues entirely unrelated to dosing ferts can cause increases also. Tap water, evaporation, water change frequencies etc.

            The change in Conductivity was rapid also.

            Plants are pretty good at maintaining turgor and osmotic potential against changes in their external environment.
            I do not think subtle differences in uS are going to cost the plant much energy differences in terms of homeostasis, 100-200ppm are not that big a factor

            Parts per thousand, now you are talking salinity issues for aquatic plants. Even nastier ones like Na+........
            www.BarrReport.com

            Comment


            • #21
              Sulfates I Am Not Sure How Much Difference

              Hi Tom,

              True the constituent make-up that gives us the TDS is more important than the number itself.

              I guess I was assuming the conductivity based on fertz dosing.

              The TDS difference in this case being principally attributable to sulfate, I am not convinced the sulfate difference is that big a deal…:apathy: As opposed to something like Sodium.

              Biollante
              The first sign we don't know what we are doing is an obsession with numbers. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

              Disclaimer: I am not trying to make you mad, it is just what I am, an evil plant monster, 'nuf said.
              • I believe the information I am giving is sound, I am not a veterinarian, professional chemist or particularly bright and certainly not a "Guru.".
              • I assume you are of legal age, competent and it is legal for you to acquire, possess and use any materials or perform any action in your in your jurisdiction.
              • When in doubt "don't."

              Comment


              • #22
                You got it, Na vs SO4 are huge differences and the devil is in the details, but the devil is also in evidence that has long disputed the K+, Ca+ claims.

                I had the 1st debate on excess K+ back in 1998, we just did not know and many folks were REALLY larding the K+ on for their dosing. Many use KCL also. No one could find an upper limit. This went on without ANY issues for about 3 years.

                The 2nd debate someone around 2001 muddled up Ca/K+ intercelluar communication with basic whole plant horticulture. A myth was born.

                They claimed that K+ should be less than 20ppm and that 10-20ppm is bad. They claimed it blocked Ca++ uptake in certain plants. I asked which plants: answer: Ammannia gracilus tops would stunt. I laughed but then showed them Erik's tank with 100ppm + of K+. Huge stand of the plant. Growign so well, they awarded him the AGA overall contest winner prize for that year. I confirmed this again at 50ppm and grew the plant and posted the pictures.

                They would not let it go even after that, good lord.

                Next was PPS and Edward's claim about balancing K+ and Ca and Mg by ratios (which really is all the entire Special N is all about, same stuff, repackaged and worded different), around 2003-2004.

                Then I think the guy's name was Kevon who made similar claims

                Then this.

                Or "How history repeats and no one learn a damn thing"
                I come off rather stifling and testy over this but after over adeacde of trying to explain the basic stuff, and HOW to test something, it's a croc of horse manure that these people just, do not understand the basics.
                Then they poo poo me personally

                I present the case and show the pictures where the ratios are all over the place, or the ppm's are at a much higher ppm than they claim is detrimental.
                That's not good enough for them, they think their tank is "special", that somehow it has to mean something, and NEVER might it be something other than what they think it is, this is a extremely naive attitude to have.

                It is only when you falsify something, do you gain any certainty/are able to rule something out, and that requires a reference of some sort, which are sorely lacking in most debates. All it takes is for 1-2 tanks to have those conditions without the problems. Then that entire hypothesis is tossed out the window. But many of these people will not let it go.........and the myth keeps coming back up like a weed you cannot kill.
                www.BarrReport.com

                Comment


                • #23
                  Poo Pooing Tom Barr Will Be A Demonstration Sport in London This Summer

                  Hi Tom,

                  Okay I am in the same place as you on the ratio-fertilizing thing.


                  Pretty much all of my systems violate these rules,
                  :nonchalance: I tend to like too much of everything and not have to worry about anything.

                  My curiosity was piqued by yme’s post and really the only thing I could see reducing the conductivity was lowering the sulfates and I simply cannot fathom the sulfates bit.


                  All of these programs seem like “hitting the numbers,” without concern as what goes into the numbers.

                  I remember some years ago people thinking they could influence the amount of CO2 in solution by adding HCl.
                  :cower:

                  Biollante
                  The first sign we don't know what we are doing is an obsession with numbers. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

                  Disclaimer: I am not trying to make you mad, it is just what I am, an evil plant monster, 'nuf said.
                  • I believe the information I am giving is sound, I am not a veterinarian, professional chemist or particularly bright and certainly not a "Guru.".
                  • I assume you are of legal age, competent and it is legal for you to acquire, possess and use any materials or perform any action in your in your jurisdiction.
                  • When in doubt "don't."

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Salinity stress(which is what you are implying by suggesting Conductivity) really does not occur till it is much higher and then
                    yup... I don't know what they use at tropica, but something like a 1/3 hoagland solution?

                    but from observation: most GOOD tanks have a conductivity <500 uS. your tank included . Is this then circumstantial? I just don't know...

                    greets,

                    yme

                    Comment

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