Hi Tom

Hum.....I still have a question about the above dosing amounts of TMG.

The EI dosing of Traces calls for:
2 ml 3x per week or 6 ml per week for a 10 to 20 gallon aquarium
5 ml 3x per week or 15 ml per week for a 20 to 40 gallon aquarium

You are now saying to dose 2.5 ml daily or 17.5 ml per week for a 20 gallon aquarium.

This is 2.5 ml more than you would dose in a 40 gallon aquarium or an aquarium twice as large.

I believe that you mentioned with EI dosing that you use the same dosings amounts whether you use TMG, Flourish or a correct solution of CSM+B.

EI was designed for added CO2 and high light too.

I'm still wondering why it's a little high. A 250 ml bottle would only last about 14 weeks for a 20 gallon aquarium or you would use a little over 0.9 liters per year for that same aquarium.

Thanks

Left C

It's not that high though.

I did not come up with the tables for EI, I stated a long time ago that you could scale up froma basic 75 liter tank and slide, rather than abrupt changes.

So a 20 gal would 5mls 3x a week, or about 2mls per day.
A 30 gal would get 3 mls a day or 7mls 3x a week and so on.

The math is kept simple, but folks seem to want tables, I did not make those , those are other folk's ideas and approaches, if you have less light, they should work fine on the leaner side.

They tend to target less, rather than more vs the EI I suggested.
It might surpise you, but traces are generally underdosed.


Claus mentioned this every time he came here.
Several growth studies on aquatic plants suggest they will optimize growth at 2-6 ppm of Fe.

Hardly the routine 0.1ppm that PMDD suggested.

FYI, PPS pro suggest even more than EI, about 5x vs the ratio of macro nutrients.

Addign extra will not hurt, it's a bit silly to howl about EI wastefulness when the traces are being wasted using PPS pro.

Relative to the macros, PPS suggest 5x on average the amount of traces.

I guess 10ppm extra of NO3 is deathly toxic but 5x more copper, zinc and Mn is okay


Regards,
Tom Barr

I just wanted a little more info. That's why I bugged you.

I want to understand and learn more. I'm not content when someone says that X amount is correct, but there's no reason as to why. I want to know why X amount is correct. And, that is what you are explaining to me. Thank you.

I wondered why you didn't put EI into a sliding form. I didn't like the tables. There's too much of a range. A sliding form would of been much better, IMO.

I wanted a math formula.

I know that on many of your comments hinted that more traces might be needed and you were experimenting with this idea. I saw 0.2-0.5 ppm or more Fe many times on your articles.



Thanks again for you time, Tom!

Take care

Left C

Well, back in the mid 1990's I was adding 1-2ppm of Fe via TMG.


Not .2-.5ppm, that was 2-5x higher than PMDD suggested at the time.
I was a bit more conservative because I'd not yet tested it myself and could not say.

I speculated, but that's easy to do.

I needed more evidence.

To test for traces:

You need to have everything else non limiting.
If you do not this will confound your test results and be impossible to tease any useful conclusions out of/or answer your original question.

From there you can go two main directions: low to high, or high to low.

Now if you start at limiting levels, you can stunt the plants, this might take time to recover.

Bad idea.

So add excess, then slowly back off.
Do this in 3 to 4 week intervals for each treatment/Test mls per tank size.

So if a tank is 75 liters, try adding 5mls a day and then after 4weeks, lower it to 4, then 4 more weeks, try 3mls for 4 weeks, then 2mls and 1 ml etc.

You need at least 3 weeks to see a difference due to plant's reserves.
They horde trace nutrients and you need to depelete to see any negative plant health related signs.

During this test, you need to be sure the CO2 and other nutrients are very well maintained.

I suggest 2x a week 50% water changes when you do this and dose thereafter or go to daily dosing routines.

Keep up on things, otherwise all your work will be wasted
Done that a few times myself.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

So the only true method I really know of beside measuring dry weight differences or O2 level differences etc, is simly watching the plant's responses over time when you isolate the trace dosing.

Basically, you use the plants as the indicator for plant health, which is really what we want to know, not some PPM level or test kit reading that we have to infer plant health to.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Thank you again for your explanation and time.

Take care

Left C

Left C., like most of us you seem to be looking for an accurate way to determine just what the plants need in the way of nutrients, not just a crude guess. But, plants are so adaptable they will do well with a wide range of nutrient concentrations, so finding the exact amount needed isn't really necessary. It would be necessary if when we overdo the fertilizing something real bad were to happen. But, that doesn't seem to ever be the case. As long as we maintain enough of each nutrient in the water, and don't go hog wild by using ten times what is required, the plants just adapt to that and do well. Then the water changes we do prevent us from inadvertently building up to ten times what we need, so using a crude table for nutrient needs does work very well. Even CO2 doesn't need to be some exact amount for best growth. It just needs to be the same, day after day after day, so we aren't signaling algae spores to start growing. I'm not a botanist by any stretch of the imagination, so I have no good idea why plants can adapt to such a range of nutrient levels, but I'm sure happy they are so accomodating.

Well,

Plants cannot run away, so it's a good thing they can handle a wide range.
They have little choice, that ........or else they die.


We also can handle a wide range.
We do not need to eat precisely and continuously all day/night either.

And many of us have excess fat hanging aound also to prove it

Regards,
Tom Barr

Oooh! That was below the belt! Considering where the fat is, that seems appropriate.

Was just wonderin.. Seachem Eq and GH booster are somewhat the same right? Are there any other alternatives to these if were gonna try the EI daily dosing approach? Haven't seen any seachem products bein sold here at any of the LFS I go to. And ordering both online would be a hassle somewhat. We do have dry ferts available here. I have been dosing EI since 5 mos. ago (i think). And for trace a friend was able to bring in some plantex CSM+b. So with this how would I be able to follow the daily dosing routine using KNO3, KH2PO4, KCL, CaCO3 and Epsom salt and CSM+B for example.

Alternatives to GH booster: CaCl2+MgSO4.
If you want it exact, add some K2SO4, FeSO4, MnSO4 as well.

CaCO3 is not that suitable for adding Ca, try CaCL2, you should be able to find this easy enough.


Regards,
Tom Barr