Hi folks,

I am really looking forward to hear some feedback on this new Tropic substrate. Here in Malta we have Seachem's flourite too but strangely enough since it has to be imported from the US, imports are not that frequent.. . maybe due to high freight and transport charges. Being a European country, it seems to be much easier to import Tropica range from Denmark.

It would be interesting to know whether this clay based 'soft' substrate is long term like flourite or not.

Thanks a lot for your scientific contributions,

Ramon Vella

To me the Tropica substrate looks very similar to Dennerle's Deponit.

What puts me off with this type of substrate (as it did with Deponit) is that it needs to have a layer of gravel on top... I avoid layered substrates like the plague because 1) I've never found any benefit from them, especially over products like Flourite (haven't tried ADA AS yet) and 2) I hate pussy footing around when planting or rescaping trying desperately not to pull the bottom layers up on top of the gravel and into the water column...

Sorry, pet peeve of mine!

But I'm really interested to know what they've done to TMG as this is (was?) a great Fe + trace product that I use. I heard somewhere that along with changing the name they may also have changed the formula (someone mentioned that the new stuff has sediment, something I never saw with TMG)?

Tom, what did they say about why they used NH4NO3?

I friend of mine asked about the NH4 in Tropica Plant Nutrition plus and got the answer that Tropica have made scientific tests and found that NH4 doesn't cause more algae than NO3. And that nitrite shouldn't be a problem with many plants and stable nitrification.

It feels a bit weird that two such opposite claims about NH4 exists.

Two simple questions that run counter:
Why do we ever get green water then?
Or why cannot we simply add progressively more and more fish load to supply our nutrient needs?

Simple questions right?
If NH4 is really not causing the issue, then what specifically is?
I can consistently add NH4 and get GW.
I can consistently add more and more fish and get GW.
If it's not NH4, then what is it?
I can add each nutrient, NH4 is the most likely candidate.

I think what's happening though is not really that counter to what I've seen:

Adding a little bit of NH4 to the substrate is not a large issues.
Adding a lot is.
Adding a little light, not an issue also, adding a lot, is.
Getting away with substrate ferts, TMG and lean N&P water column with lower light is possible with fish loading only.
Lots of large water changes will address NH4 dosing issues.
Many do these lower light, substrate ferts in new tanks.

ADA AS has NH4, so does PS( a lot more).
So does soil.

Folks have some issues until most of it is all gone due to bacterial oxidation and use Activated carbon/zeolite, water changes, mature filters(why might adding those to a new tank help after all? PO4? K+? cannot be CO2 or other things, O2? NO3? NH4?)

If adding NH4 to a tank works so well, why bother with aquarium fertilizers at all? Shouldn't we just use terrestrial fertilizers?
Why would pulling up a jobes stick or tossing one into a high light cause algae then?

Now adding a tiny amount of NH4 is likely fine to lower light well planted tank.
Since it's a tiny amount, it's not really going to a whole lot unless you have a lower light tank perhaps. If you add it namely to the substrate, the layer will settle and the top will be namely NO3 after 2-3 weeks and the bottom layer should turn anaerobic and be maintained as NH4.

What happens when you pull up a soil based tank in the start up phase(first few weeks)?

You can test and try it yourself.
Do not take my word for it

It's all about the dose and not the black or white add it or not mentality.
A tiny amount is going to have less significant effect, putting into a grain like the ADA product likely would help some plants. And outer grain will not have NH4, only the inside after a peroid of time, the roots will still be able to get at the NH4 lock inside the grain though.

As long as we have LOW DOSE of NH4, like fish waste levels(which tend to used ASAP and seldom if ever measured), there's little harm.
High light also makes a large difference.

Troopica is welcomed to offer an alternative explaination and also discuss specifics such as dose, light intensity, anmd plant biomass, water column levels and location etc.

But I can say adding a little bit of NH4 is obviously not causing algae also, most folks have fish after all.

I can also say why not use terrestrial fertilizers?
why have those not been successfull if what they say is really true based on the above comments from Tropica?

They would do themselves out of a business
Adding a little bit and saying it helps is a bit misleading.
If you add only a little bit to the water column, it's hard to get much impact, if you add more to the substrate and have it locked inside, then the plant roots can get at it.

If you lock it inside individual grains vs a solid layer like soil, uprooting should not be such an issue.

There's a lot mroe it than the simplisitic explanation recieved.
I'm only hearing this 3rd party from Tropica(I know Troels and Ole, I do not think either of us saw any differences between what we talk about it about NH4)

Regards,
Tom Barr

If I overdose a few ppm NO3 I don't worry about it. There seems to be a really fine line on what is a suitable NH4 dose.

What does that mean? That Troels and Ole thinks NH4 is bad, but that Tropica "science department" made a NH4-based fertilizer anyway?

This doesn't compute at all.

It's all about the dose.
I do not have their macro ferts here.
I suspect and know Claus well enough to know he's not going to put much in there. He's always errored more on the conservative side.

After all, we do have fish and they do produce NH4, but do you ever see any in the water column?

No.

I just talked to Troels and Ole not more than 2 months ago.
We drove all over the CA coast and I took them to see many natural ecosystems.

I have no clue as to the context of the question posed nor the response.
I can easily repeat my test and give the data if you are going to repeat the test.

I can promise you if you add enough NH4 and enough light, you will get algae.
You will also get dead or sick fish.

Again, it is all about the dose.


Regards,
Tom Barr

Aha ok. That clears up most of my confusion. Thanks Tom!

Well, I still do not know the context of conversaion, so I guess sure thing, you are welcomed.

Claus figures it this way for the conservative concentrations:
you can always add more, but most of the line is geared for the newby, for the
expert or high growth/light tank, he figures they know they have more growth and will add more nutrients obviously.

Problem is, even experts follow the directions too literally
You add more ferts when you have more growth.more CO2/more light etc

NH4 is a squrriley nutrient.
You can add it, sure. You can even add it as the sole supply of N for plants, some added .5-0.8ppm per day and then did 80% daily water changes with no ill effects.

The more light, the higher the dose, the more fish, lowering the CO2 with NH4 dosing etc, these all will help induce a number of algae species if you keep pushing things.

Regards,
Tom Barr