Tom's Crystal Red tank set up

[Tom Barr]

I have imparted on a more serious interest, due in large part to the issues and myths surrounding shrimp. Okay........I do really like CRS's. More so than Discus and the like. I've had them for sometime, but have not given them serious consideration till the last 3-4 months.

Many shrimp folks are present in SF and many breed these CRS's and have higher grades. The last open house in the SF club had several tanks full of higher grades. Low on the planted side, but high on the shrimp.

I have a section of shelving in my garage that would be suitable for a cooler spot to house several small tanks. I used sponge dual filters in the past for breeding fish, it's cheap and reliable way to clean and feed fry without damage/harm. 10 Gallon tanks are cheap 9-10$ or so, I have 2 already.
I bought 2 more and got a decent shop light with 6500K T8's and electronic ballast mirror reflector for 28$.

This is hung from chains in typical garage fashion and on a timer.
These tanks are non CO2 and shall remain so.
Aeration using the sponge filters will also help cooling the water, the garage is cooler than most areas. I have some fans coming for the evaporation cooling also.

I also have plenty of smaller driftwood Manzy laying around for them to pick on, some gravels like ADA AS(mineralized pretty good after 3 years), Black flourite etc. the 10 Gal tanks are stacked end to end towards the front and the 48" shop light sits about 18" above them, with 2x 32W 6500K.
Have no measured the PAR yet.

Plants: one tank will get HC via the dry start method
Another will get Gloss/Starou
One will be barebottom and the other last will have the black flourite.
Each tank will have a larger dual sponge filter and fairly high aeration.

I have spare air to keep any culls and extra filters etc.

Most of the plants will be more the floating type, moss on emergent wood, pennywort, Water sprite etc. Easy weeds for export of nutrients.

This should get me in business.
I'm getting some different genetic stock higher grades this weekend from a friend in SF.
I might order some from other folks later.

I have 3 lines and want a total of 5.
This should give good genetic strength to the fry.

3 of the tanks will be CRS's.

Got most things, just some more CRS's and the fans and I'll be set.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[jazzlvr123]

looks like the crs bug bit you. they pay for themselves once you have a healthy decent grade colony going.
are you going to use an organic form of carbon such as excel? im curious to know how you will keep an hc carpet alive without co2 supplementation. best of luck to ya tom

[dbazuin]

I wish I had that kind of space.

But we can always enjoy your pictures :-)

[shoggoth43]

The carpet should do fine as long as it's a monoculture. The HC will settle down and adjust to the available level of CO2 and lighting although a floating plant may be needed to drop the lighting levels somewhat if it were too high. If he were to add something like Blyxa to that tank then the HC would be outcompeted and he'd be in for a miserable experience. Diane Walstad has already essentially done the same thing with HC.

-
S


looks like the crs bug bit you. they pay for themselves once you have a healthy decent grade colony going.
are you going to use an organic form of carbon such as excel? im curious to know how you will keep an hc carpet alive without co2 supplementation. best of luck to ya tom

[Tom Barr]

looks like the crs bug bit you. they pay for themselves once you have a healthy decent grade colony going.
are you going to use an organic form of carbon such as excel? im curious to know how you will keep an hc carpet alive without co2 supplementation. best of luck to ya tom

No, just poure non CO2 methods.
Excel is toxic to invertebrates, how can we honestly suggest a few ppm of NO3 is somehow toxic, while adding just a few ppom of Excel will knowningly kill most inverts?
http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/pubs/fulltext/2005/20050003.pdf

You cannot complain and suggest low NO3's or ferts in general and give a free pass to CO2 and Excel.
Why is there not this same zeal and over active advice about CO2/Excel?
The research is pretty clear as far as risk.

Same with the fish and other inverts.
Are CRS's much more tolerant than all the other inverts and fish we keep to Excel and CO2?

I think not.

I think with no other stem plants, the HC should do okay with minimal lighting.
HC done with a DSM is something I suggested to her while we took a trip in Australia.
It worked well with HC for her, no reason to expect otherwise for other folks.
Getting the light right is key, and the ADA As should work well also.
I use aeration sponge filters, these work pretty well and provide stable CO2 for the most part.
If algae appears, I can work with it and use light, CO2, water changes/draw downs or Excel or in certain cases, nutrients.

A good sized pack of shrimp tend to pick and clean pretty well also.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[TheKillHaa]

sounds like a plan huh? :p
u arent left anything behind.
whats "the cool" average temp in ur garage nowadays?

[Tom Barr]

76-72F

Drops to 68-70F at night

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Tom Barr]

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u312/plantbrain/3cbce457.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u312/plantbrain/a957a07f.jpg

Bit more work and time to put into it.

I'll feed the CRS and fires and get them all out and use a tripod and actually clean the glass etc.
Then.........take a pic.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Daniel]

No, just poure non CO2 methods.
Excel is toxic to invertebrates, how can we honestly suggest a few ppm of NO3 is somehow toxic, while adding just a few ppom of Excel will knowningly kill most inverts?
http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/pubs/fulltext/2005/20050003.pdf

You cannot complain and suggest low NO3's or ferts in general and give a free pass to CO2 and Excel.
Why is there not this same zeal and over active advice about CO2/Excel?
The research is pretty clear as far as risk.

Same with the fish and other inverts.
Are CRS's much more tolerant than all the other inverts and fish we keep to Excel and CO2?

I think not.

I think with no other stem plants, the HC should do okay with minimal lighting.
HC done with a DSM is something I suggested to her while we took a trip in Australia.
It worked well with HC for her, no reason to expect otherwise for other folks.
Getting the light right is key, and the ADA As should work well also.
I use aeration sponge filters, these work pretty well and provide stable CO2 for the most part.
If algae appears, I can work with it and use light, CO2, water changes/draw downs or Excel or in certain cases, nutrients.

A good sized pack of shrimp tend to pick and clean pretty well also.

Regards,
Tom Barr

I have used both Excel and Brightwell Co2 in my 55 gallon tank without noticeable side effects to my crs. Though my shrimp are not of a "high" quality they seem happy a reproduce often. I'm not disputing the great Tom but I think moderation is a wonderful thing. On a side note its funny a crap to watch an Amono shrimp run up the side of the tank, leap off the glass and snatch food out of a fish's mouth. :)

[Tom Barr]

I agree with moderation as well, but not only for CRS's, but for the plants and any/all components of an ecosystem.

I'll get some more/better pics of the 10 gal with the fires and the CRS's in there.
I still need to find more SS grades from different lines.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Tom Barr]

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u312/plantbrain/6ca58eda.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u312/plantbrain/5e24bba1.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u312/plantbrain/9a064db9.jpg

2 of the CRS SS grades are berried, I can at least them now in this tank.
The fires are breeding pretty well now, but I wonder if I'll get the deeper red development as they get older. Takes about 6-7 months to get a good sized adult female to tell.
None of the fry I've breed are like the RCS's and pale etc, they are all solid red, just not as intense or solid as the older ones. This may change within a few more months of growth.
I'll switch the CRS's over to a different tank or perhaps the Fires in a couple of weeks, not looking forward to that job!!

I have 2 x 10 gal tanks that are doing the DSM for belem hair grass and some HC etc with ADA AS.
These will be grow out and test tanks. I have my 2 bare bottom and semi plant free reference tanks for production.
I also have a 20 gal but it's more for holding for fish and RCS culls.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[bsmith782]

Ill happily trade you some higher grade CRS for some of those fires.
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r288/bsmith782/crs035.jpg

[Tom Barr]

I'll take you up on that offer. They are F1's and all come from the same stock, there are no lower grades etc in this line.
How many CRS do you have available?
I can do say 20.
PM for details.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[Tom Barr]

To compare the growth of the fry to now, this is what they looked like a couple of months ago for the Fire reds:

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u312/plantbrain/resizedfireshrimp.jpg

Look closely, you can see tiny red specks

Regards,
Tom Barr

[rickztahone]

great looking reds and crystals Tom. do you currently have any reds for sale?

[Tom Barr]

Not really, I have a ton of fry CRS's, much more than I did, or perhaps...could see.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Tom Barr]

I plan on separating the CRS's from the Fires this next week.
Need to sell a bunch of HC out a 10 gal and add it back to the shrimp rack.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[aman74]

No, just poure non CO2 methods.
Excel is toxic to invertebrates, how can we honestly suggest a few ppm of NO3 is somehow toxic, while adding just a few ppom of Excel will knowningly kill most inverts?
http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/pubs/fulltext/2005/20050003.pdf

You cannot complain and suggest low NO3's or ferts in general and give a free pass to CO2 and Excel.
Why is there not this same zeal and over active advice about CO2/Excel?
The research is pretty clear as far as risk.

Same with the fish and other inverts.
Are CRS's much more tolerant than all the other inverts and fish we keep to Excel and CO2?

I think not.

I think with no other stem plants, the HC should do okay with minimal lighting.
HC done with a DSM is something I suggested to her while we took a trip in Australia.
It worked well with HC for her, no reason to expect otherwise for other folks.
Getting the light right is key, and the ADA As should work well also.
I use aeration sponge filters, these work pretty well and provide stable CO2 for the most part.
If algae appears, I can work with it and use light, CO2, water changes/draw downs or Excel or in certain cases, nutrients.

A good sized pack of shrimp tend to pick and clean pretty well also.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Hey Tom, in this thread you seemed to be ok with C02: http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/7546-CRS-s-and-high-grades-a-lesson-in-testing-and-back-tracking.

I'm wondering if I misunderstood or if maybe your views had changed? I'm interested in using a low amount of C02 or excel and wondered what the current thought is. It seems your having good luck with EI and shrimp so far and I hope that continues as more people may give it a try.

Thanks,

Anthony

[Mark Webb]

You have some fabulous reds there Tom. I have reds (more like pale pinks) and CRS together. The CRS were breeding well but as the reds have multiplied the CRS have stoppped breeding.

[Tom Barr]

I think there's a lot more do not know about shjrimp and they are highly inbred making them harder to understand environmental quality issues.

But, that said........I think folks should use basic stats used upon fish.

Nicole spoke at our local club and was wiser than her years in the hobby. She suggested that CO2 and Excel, are likely much more serious threats than nutrients, certainly if you are on the leaner, lower side of fert dosing.
TDS was another point she was careful to focus on. Some species have different parameters than others.

Anyway, genetics matter, CO2 is poorly used amongst hobbyists in the plant, fish and shrimp subgroups, and nutrients are not nearly as evil as many suggest.
Rather than doing low CO2/Excel, go whole hog.

Moss are good since they have low demands.
A PAR meter is nice since you can hit the 25-30mmol ranges for non CO2 tanks without much issue.
Tannins(soil and/or wood) are welcomed.

I think CO2 does work with them, but.......they will bred and act better without.
Fish are less effected.

Point being: you can have nice looking tank with plants and no CO2.
Since many place a higher standard on the critter health, this is not a bad solution, trade off, middle ground.

In otherwords, it meets the goals of the larger CRS group of hobbyists.

[fauxjargon]

My personal experience is that shrimp breed much faster in a no co2 no excel planted tank. I had regular low grade RCS breeding in a tank where I used excel until I got a CO2 system. The shrimp seemed to do better under CO2 than excel. However low grade RCS are likely less inbred than a higher grade shrimp and possibly more hardy. But now the exact same strain of shrimp is in a tank without CO2, ferts or excel with light stocking (around 50 shrimp and several baby bristlenose plecos I am growing out in the tank). The tank peaks at around 30ppm nitrates and then drops to 20ppm with a 30% water change every two weeks. The shrimp are now making babies very efficiently.

I am going to double the water changes on the tank and add a small school (maybe 7) of Rocket Pencilfish because they shouldn't be very efficient shrimp predators. The tank is not "aquascaped" - it is a mess of clay pots with a huge cloud of Java Moss in the water and a few crypts growing in the corners. The lighting is 2x23w CFL bulbs which is a lot but the tank is shaded by a thick layer of floating plants and I have not had any problems with it so far. The only algae growth in the tank is green spot algae which only grows slowly and on the equipment not the glass for some reason.

[Tom Barr]

I think most agree on this point, but there's no real controlled studies, mostly just "observatives", but........they are pretty consistent with respect to Breeding.
I think many blame nutrients for troubles, just like they use to do with fish.......when CO2/Excel might be the real killer, which is most certainly is with fish.

Every week someone gases a fish.

Shrimp are pretty cool, where are their gills?
Folks often do not know. But they are more sensitive than fish.

So for me, they make model critters to test with.

Now some claim plants do not like a certain ppm of nutrients....but the shrimp and fish are fine?
Fish and shrimp are less tolerant than plants, so this is a generalization, but a very safe one.