Metering and Needle Valves For Our Use

[Left C]

Should we start a discussion about needle and metering valves? ... About what to look for, part numbers, Cv, and whatever else pops up.

I've been using Ideal 52-1-12 needle valves (http://idealvalve.thomasnet.com/item/all-categories/52-series-forged-brass-needle-valves/item-1128?&seo=110). This model of Ideal works very well over a wide range.
Ideal needle valves: http://www.idealvalve.com/

I just picked up an Ideal 54-2-11 stainless steel straight through needle valve (http://idealvalve.thomasnet.com/item/all-categories/54-series-forged-stainless-needle-valves/item-1064?&seo=110&bc=100|1007|0|1005). I wonder if it will offer a good flow range. You can compare its specs with the 54-1-11 valve which has a lot of similar specs to the 52-1-12. The differences are the body material and shape.
Ideal 54 series: http://idealvalve.thomasnet.com/viewitems/all-categories/54-series-forged-stainless-needle-valves?&forward=1
Ideal 52 series: http://idealvalve.thomasnet.com/viewitems/all-categories/52-series-forged-brass-needle-valves?&forward=1

I've also used the Swagelok "M" series metering valves.The "M" series has been reported only offer control over about a 1/4 turn range. It seems the "S" series Swagelok valves would be a better choice for our use.
Swagelok metering valves - description pdf: http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/webcatalogs/EN/MS-01-142.pdf
"M" series discussion: http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/7368-B-4MA-Swagelok-metering-valve-adjustment-questions
Swagelok metering valves - catalog: http://www.swagelok.com/search/find_products_home.aspx?SEARCH=/search/Metering/id-10000276/type-1

[Oreo]

I would definitely like to see some more discussion on this.

It is my experience that the Swageloc medium flow series is indeed too high a flow range for all but the largest aquariums. It will work for smaller ones but the low-flow range would be much better. I'd like to see some links to those valves for sale though and common prices- retail & ebay.

[Left C]

The link at the end of this paragraph shows all the Swagelok " Low-Flow Metering Valves, Cv up to 0.004" shown in their catalog. There are many others that have been manufactured that aren't listed, but they can be made or you will see them for sale. Also, some may have different fittings, different handles, different seals, etc that I didn't list. These are ones with Ethylene Propylene O-Rings, Kalrez O-Rings, Double Pattern Metering Valves, Swagelok VCR Metal Gasket Face Seal Fittings, Adjustable-Torque Slotted Handles, etc: http://www.swagelok.com/search/find_products_home.aspx?SEARCH=/search/Low-Flow+Metering+Valves%2c+Cv+up+to+0.004+%281000+psi g+[68+bar]%29/id-10002278/type-1

1/8" Silver-Mist Chrome-Plated Brass

List Price $103.43 B-SM2-A: (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=B-SM2-A) Brass Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/8 in. MNPT
List Price $83.54 B-SM2-S2-A: (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=B-SM2-S2-A) Brass Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/8 in. MNPT x 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting
List Price $75.03 B-SS2: (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=B-SS2) Brass Low-Flow Metering Valve, 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting
List Price $67.76 B-SS2-A: (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=B-SS2-A) Brass Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting
List Price (ASK FOR QUOTE) B-SS2-A-SL: (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=B-SS2-A-SL) Brass Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting, Slotted Handle
List Price $110.40 B-SS2-VH: (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=B-SS2-VH) Brass Low-Flow Metering Valve, 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting, Vernier Handle


1/4" Silver-Mist Chrome-Plated Brass

List Price $77.08 B-SS4: (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=B-SS4) Brass Low-Flow Metering Valve, 1/4 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting
List Price $66.42 B-SS4-A: (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=B-SS4-A) Brass Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/4 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting
List Price $112.96 B-SS4-VH: (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=B-SS4-VH) Brass Low-Flow Metering Valve, 1/4 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting, Vernier Handle



1/8" 316 Stainless Steel

List Price $123.41 SS-SS2: (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=SS-SS2) SS Low-Flow Metering Valve, 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting
List Price $111.73 SS-SS2-A: (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=SS-SS2-A) SS Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting
List Price $149.14 SS-SS2-SC11: (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=SS-SS2-SC11) SS Low-Flow Metering Valve, 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting, SC-11 Cleaned
List Price $148.32 SS-SS2-A-VH: (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=SS-SS2-A-VH) SS Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting, Vernier Handle
List Price $140.94 SS-SS2-VH: (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=SS-SS2-VH) SS Low-Flow Metering Valve, 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting, Vernier Handle

1/4" 316 Stainless Steel

List Price $127.10 SS-SS4: (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=SS-SS4) SS Low-Flow Metering Valve, 1/4 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting
List Price $109.58 SS-SS4-A: (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=SS-SS4-A) SS Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/4 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting
List Price $145.76 SS-SS4-A-VH: (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=SS-SS4-A-VH) SS Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/4 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting, Vernier Handle
List Price $161.3 4 SS-SS4-SL: (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=SS-SS4-SL) SS Low-Flow Metering Valve, 1/4 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting, Slotted Handle
List Price $144.63 SS-SS4-VH: (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=SS-SS4-VH) SS Low-Flow Metering Valve, 1/4 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting, Vernier Handle


Did you notice that all but two of these have Swagelok tubing fittings? There is one with two 1/8" MNPT fittings. Another has one 1/8" MPT and a 1/8" tubing fitting at the upper end of this angle shaped valve. They are:

List Price $103.43 B-SM2-A: (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=B-SM2-A) Brass Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/8 in. MNPT
List Price $83.54 B-SM2-S2-A: (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=B-SM2-S2-A) Brass Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/8 in. MNPT x 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting

[argnom]

Thanks for the info. Left C. I just realized that I work a few blocks aways from one of their distribution centers. I'll check if they do walk-in sales. I could save on shipping. :p

[Left C]

Thanks for the info. Left C. I just realized that I work a few blocks aways from one of their distribution centers. I'll check if they do walk-in sales. I could save on shipping. :p

Are you going to get one of their metering valves?

I'm wondering how well either of the following valves will work.
List Price $103.43 B-SM2-A (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=B-SM2-A): Brass Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/8 in. MNPT
List Price $83.54 B-SM2-S2-A (http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=B-SM2-S2-A): Brass Low-Flow Angle-Pattern Metering Valve, 1/8 in. MNPT x 1/8 in. Swagelok Tube Fitting

[argnom]

Yep, but I'll wait a couple of months, I just stated a new job and the finances are a little low these days so I have to be carefull... If I can get a better price than retail, I'll let you guys know. I could always pick them up. I'll keep everybody posted.

I really do not know what model I'll get, but I'm certain that somebody over there will know their stuff and be able to tell me what model will work the best for our use.

Cheers!

[Left C]

... I'd like to see some links to those valves for sale though and common prices- retail & ebay.I added the list prices to the Swagelok metering valves today.

[herns]

Im glad this thread was open. I can go looking for dual stage regulators on Ebay and know which one would work. But not on metering valves.

[Koen_v_V]

I've just ordered a low flow B-SS6MM (Brass Low-Flow Metering Valve, 6 mm Swagelok Tube Fitting) for my second CO2 output to my second AM1000. Hopefully all parts will fit and nicer flow control is provided. Keep you guys updated.

[S&KGray]

Here is a link I found with Needle/Metering valve recommendations: http://webpages.charter.net/bobalston/Documents/Aquarium%20Needle-Metering%20Valve%20Recommendations.htm

[Left C]

A fins' thread that I remember reading a year or two ago is one that is on the list in the thread above. It's: http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9710/msg00174.html

In this post it says: "... The Nupro valve you have listed is not the smallest one they have available. The one you have listed, they quote as being their "M series" valve and have a max Cv rating of 0.03. This rating is like the equivalent of resistance. Which, according to their data sheet, translates to a flow rate of 1.2 cubic feet per minute when connected to an inlet pressure of 2 bar (35psig). ...

They do have a smaller valve, which is listed as being the "S series". This has a max Cv rating of 0.004, which at the same inlet pressure of 2 bar (35psig), translates to a maximum flow rate of 0.15 cubic feet per minute. This valve has a number of turns till open of 8-12.

The version I bought is (a "S" series) labeled as B-SS4 (The B stands for brass and the 4 stands for 1/4") The 1/8" version is labeled as B-SS2.

The valve comes standard with fine adjustment handle, but the vernier to go with it, adds a -VH to the labeling, so the one I bought is then labeled B-SS4-VH.

The version you refer to is labeled B-4MG, which is a 1/4" fitting version of the "M series", a 1/8" version of the same is labeled B-2MG. Again, adding a -VH turns it into the vernier version.

The valve is fantastic, allowing me total extremely fine control over my CO2 flow rate. I can wind the rate from about 1 bubble every 5 minutes, to about 4-5 bubbles a second, linearly, if the inlet pressure remains constant.

Changing the inlet pressure allows me a greater control range. ..."

It's hard reading, but the author, Marque Crozman, is actually praising the "S" series B-SS4-VH and not the "M" series B-2MG. Many people praised the "S" series. See 3) in the "Aquarium Needle/Metering Valve Recommendations" above.

In some of the other articles in the same thread, some people liked the "M" series and some didn't. See 7) in Other Valves in the thread. This seems to fit with what many of us experienced.

[Left C]

In the link (http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/7398-Metering-and-Needle-Valves-For-Our-Use?p=52050#post52050) that S&KGray posted, Parker HR series metering valves were mentioned as being very good. I made a simple list of their descriptions and specs found on Parker's site. I noted what I thought might work or not, but I'm not sure. I need everyone's help making this list as accurate as we can make it. If you have any thoughts, please post them. The flow rate section (I guessed here) and the stem seal/packing section (I don't know what seal mediums work with pressurized CO2.) really need some help.



PARKER METERING VALVES (HR SERIES) 4170-HR: http://www.parker.com/portal/site/PARKER/menuitem.de7b26ee6a659c147cf26710237ad1ca/?vgnextcatid=1346&catalogName=METERING+VALVES+%28HR+SERIES%29+4170-HR&vgnextcat=METERING+VALVES+%28HR+SERIES%29+4170-HR&vgnextdiv=687516&partNumber=&languageCode=EN&cadonlyid=N&partCount=884&currentPage=1&pageReset=false&vgnextoid=fcc9b5bbec622110VgnVCM10000032a71dacRCRD&from=&pageno=

The Parker HR Series Metering Valve offers the highest degree of precision metering for moderate pressure applications.

A choice of seven precision ground, tapered flat, non-rotating and non-rising valve stems enable repeatable metering at flow capacities as low as 0.0004 Cv. With up to 15 stem turns to reach the maximum flow capacity of these seven orifice sizes, this valve offers the ultimate in precision flow control. This series also features shut-off capability not found in most metering valves.

These screwed bonnet designs are manufactured from stainless steel or brass forgings and are provided with stem seals below the stem threads to isolate the system media from the thread lubricant.

A choice of knurled plastic knobs, turns counter knobs, and screwdriver slotted stems are available.

The valves can be provided in both inline and angle patterns and can accommodate tubing sizes from 1/16 inch up to 1/4 inch.

A variety of US Customary and SI port connections, including CPI™ and A-LOK® compression, and female and male NPT are available.

SPECIFICATIONS

PRESSURE RATING
250 PSIG (17 BAR) – ONLY CHOICE AVAILABLE

CONFIGURATION
INLINE – OK
ANGLE – OK

FLOW RATE
CV = 0.0004 > VERY GOOD ? NOT SURE ??
CV = 0.0070 > VERY GOOD
CV = 0.0140 > OK
CV = 0.0200 > OK ?
CV = 0.0210 > OK ?
CV = 0.0300 > PROBABLY TOO HIGH ?
CV = 0.0320 > PROBABLY TOO HIGH ?
CV = 0.0470 > TOO HIGH
CV = 0.0490 > TOO HIGH
CV = 0.1180 > TOO HIGH
CV = 0.1550 > TOO HIGH

INLET SIZE
1/8” – USED MOST OFTEN
1/4” – OK

INLET CONNECTION
SINGLE FERRULE COMPRESSION
DOUBLE FERRULE COMPRESSION
MALE GASKET FACE SEAL
FNPT
MNPT

OUTLET SIZE
1/8” – USED MOST OFTEN
1/4” – OK

OUTLET CONNECTION
SINGLE FERRULE COMPRESSION
DOUBLE FERRULE COMPRESSION
MALE GASKET FACE SEAL
FNPT
MNPT

STEM TYPE
0
1
2
3
4
5
6

STEM SEAL/PACKING
ETHYLENE PROPYLENE RUBBER > ?
FLUOROCARBON RUBBER > ?
ETHYLENE PROPYLENE RUBBER > ?
BUNA-N RUBBER > GOOD ?
HIGHLY FLUORINATED FLUOROCARBON RUBBER > ?

BODY MATERIAL
BRASS - OK
STAINLESS STEEL - OK

OPERATED
KNURLED - OK
SLOTTED STEM - OK
TURNS COUNTER - BEST

TEMPERATURE RATING
-25 F TO 200 F (-32 C TO 93 C)
-25 F TO 400 F (-32 C TO 204 C)
-50 F TO 300 F (-47 C TO 149 C) - BEST

ADDITIONAL DETAIL
CLEANED FOR OXYGEN SERVICE – OK, BUT NOT NECESSARY FOR CO2 USE

SYNONYM
METERING VALVE

PRODUCT TYPE
Valve, Process Needle, Metering

[S&KGray]

Here are some links with info on the Parker HR series precision metering valves:

http://www.plesner.as/mod/products/upload/4170-HR.pdf (http://www.plesner.as/mod/products/upload/4170-HR.pdf)
http://www.hydraulicsystem.com/pdf_parkerstore/Parker%20Store%20-%20%28HR%20Series%29%20-%20Valves,Metering%20Valves.pdf

[Left C]

Thanks a bunch!

[Left C]

I was looking for some added info and I found some new (to me, anyway) goodies ... Swagelok regs! They even have two stage models and high sensitivity models and more. Also, I found some good technical info from Swagelok's site. The metering valve info isn't new, but I included it here.

Swagelok regs: http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/webcatalogs/EN/MS-02-230.PDF

Valve sizing, flow calculation and Cv: http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/webcatalogs/EN/MS-06-84.pdf

Cv calculator: http://www.swagelok.com/tools/CV_Calculator.aspx

Swagelow metering valves: http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/webcatalogs/EN/MS-01-142.pdf

[Tom Barr]

I really like the Ideal metering valves, they run in the 60$ ranges.
Nice folks, USA made fast response etc.

I made little tick marks like a vernier handle so I have a reference on the turns and can adjust incrementally easily.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[hbosman]

For the price of the Swagloks, I think I would rather go with an Ideal as well. No need for hose to npt adapters, unless you really want to spend $103.00. For now, the Fabco inline is good enough for me. It does the job for $22.00

[Tom Barr]

Well, if you can get the right brand/model for the Swagelok and they are on ebay surplus sites etc.............then they can be had for 10-40$ each.
But you have to look for the ones with the MPT/FPT.........

With Ideal, there's no mucking around looking/bidding for all that.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[Left C]

I just picked up 3 new needle valves on ebay for $20.50 shipped. Two are brass Swagelok needle valves and the other one is a stainless steel Ideal 54 series needle valve (http://idealvalve.thomasnet.com/viewitems/all-categories/54-series-forged-stainless-needle-valves?&forward=1).

The deals are out there. You just have to catch them.

[S&KGray]

I just picked up 3 new needle valves on ebay for $20.50 shipped. Two are brass Swagelok needle valves and the other one is a stainless steel Ideal 54 series needle valve (http://idealvalve.thomasnet.com/viewitems/all-categories/54-series-forged-stainless-needle-valves?&forward=1).

The deals are out there. You just have to catch them.

What are the model #'s of the valves you got?

[Left C]

What are the model #'s of the valves you got?

The SS Ideal is a 54-2-11 (http://idealvalve.thomasnet.com/item/all-categories/54-series-forged-stainless-needle-valves/item-1064?&seo=110). I think that it may turn out to be something like the Swagelok "M" series where the first quarter of a turn will be useful and after that, the rest puts it in "plaid speed." Check out the bottom right graph: http://idealvalve.thomasnet.com/Asset/Flow-Calculation-for-Gases.pdf

The two Swagelok (Whitey) valves are B1VS4 (http://swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=B-1VS4) (0.37 Cv) which are useless for us to use for CO2 control. I don't know what I'm going to do with these. I just wanted the Ideal to play with.

[csmith]

...where the first quarter of a turn will be useful and after that, the rest puts it in "plaid speed."

I laughed out loud on that. I was curious as to if it would catch on.

[Left C]

I laughed out loud on that. I was curious as to if it would catch on.I really don't know of a better way to explain it. It fits after seeing it your link.

[Oreo]

This pic is right out of the Swagelok catalog pdf. Using the Swagelok Cv calculator I plugged in a 15psig differential and 1 lpm of flow (which is about 10 times as much as I need for my ~80gal aquarium) and it gives a recommended Cv = .0022. That's smack dab in the middle of the "S" series graph which means we'll still be on the lower half of the range even for the "S" series valves but we'll have good adjustment sensitivity. Versus the "M" series where we're pegged at the very, very bottom of the adjustment range with terrible sensitivity. You have a link to it above but these graphs really tell the tale about our "medium" flow metering valves:

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l109/jdecar1/Aquarium/cv.jpg

[oazanki]

I was doing some research on needle valves and came up with this website: http://andygags.tripod.com/valves.htm

The author suggests using an RC airplane needle valve made by OS Max (Manufacturer part number 21181902). These valves cost about $10 from various websites and the author claims that they can be used to control the flow easily to 1 bubble per second.

Does anyone have any experience with those valve and if they can truly be used for our applications?

[inkslinger]

I have the Swagelok B-2MA2 Medium-Flow and this works great , I only paid $61. Web site only shows the "SS" Model

http://www.swagelok.com/search/find_products_home.aspx?part=SS-2MA2&item=7553025b-4e33-43d7-a13b-b06b267e721c


:gw