CSM+B compared to Flourish

[jeff5614]

I've been using Flourish for a few years and I'm thinking about changing to CSM+B for the cost savings. I'm curious as to anyone's experience in switching, did you see a change in plants, etc?

I've also been reading the guaranteed analysis of Flourish and CSM+B on Aquariumfertilizer.com. If I reconstitute CSM+B following their directions would it approximate the same dosage of Flourish?

Thanks,
Jeff

[shoggoth43]

I'm about to try the same thing here. I just ordered a bunch from them but also some of the chelated iron to add to it. I'm not sure how that will stack up though.

-
S

[Philosophos]

A lot of minerals come along in the tap, for most of us straight CSM+B works just fine. I spice mine up with extra Fe and magnesium.

Having used both, I can't say there's a big difference. When I do high % RO, I supplement with flourish a little just to make sure the trace elements get in there.

[jonny_ftm]

My WC doesn't include tap, only RO
I switched from TPN to CSM+B and I only see a much better growth as I increased dosing: TPN is so expensive and low dosed compared tp CSM+B

[Tom Barr]

I talked about the commercial brands vs CMS for several years now.
None of us could honestly say the commercial brands did any better.
This was with a wide range of species, tank conditions, KH/GH etc.

So I was going to make my own custom blend of trace........but it would cost much more than CMS........so why bother?
Unless I was really good at marketing/not telling certain obvious things, it would be a tough sell.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Philosophos]

CSM+B works in pure RO without causing deficiencies? Food or substrate must be providing the rest without much trouble then.

Sorry to hear about the trace not working out, Tom.

EDTA is my major complaint with CSM+B; yellowing water and such.

[barbarossa4122]

Not an expert by any means but, since I started dosing TPN and CSM+B my plants are doing much better.

[Brian20]

I use Plantex and never used flourish again. Flourish is good, maybe more than plantex alone but plantes is so cheap. Also using Plantex, KNO3, and K2H2PO4 is a lot better than flourish alone with fishes poo. The dry ferts go directly to the plant.

[jonny_ftm]

CSM+B works in pure RO without causing deficiencies? Food or substrate must be providing the rest without much trouble then.
EDTA is my major complaint with CSM+B; yellowing water and such.
Yes, it works great. Most of my plants are rooted in substrate indeed. In my nano, with floating plants, I use TPN as I have stocks to make it run for some years (only use 6ml/week)

About EDTA and yellow water, I added DTPA, lowered CSM+B dosing to approach TPN dosing on other micros, and no more issues. I dose CSM+B dry, directly in water


Flourish is good, maybe more than plantex alone...
I really doubt anyone can prove FL is better than plantex. FL is only gluconate Fe, so, based on Fe only, it is worst than CSM+B probably, depending on water

[Brian20]

that can be true, I dosed like 3x more with flourish than plantex.

[Tom Barr]

CSM+B works in pure RO without causing deficiencies? Food or substrate must be providing the rest without much trouble then.

Sorry to hear about the trace not working out, Tom.

EDTA is my major complaint with CSM+B; yellowing water and such.

What do you mean? One less hassle!

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Wet]

So I was going to make my own custom blend of trace........but it would cost much more than CMS........so why bother?
Unless I was really good at marketing/not telling certain obvious things, it would be a tough sell.
I've been thinking of this. Only also with lots more Gluteraldehyde than most add directly to their trace mixes -- like the equivalent of 5mLs Excel per 20 gal and with a mix of DTPA, EDDHA and maybe EDTA (if starting with CSM+B). I'm just pretty sure it's not worth the pain in the ass of people's orders and shipping and shit for hobby dough, you know? But I have Cidex Pro here and looking for MnSO4 (what would Tropica do?) and Boric acid (just because) and will post about it after this science project I'm doing that you'll like. I would call this trace + algecide + psuedo-carbon "The Good Shit." I'm telling you (Orlando? AquariumFertilizer?) that would sell itself.

[Brian20]

Biollante I think that depends of the plants, If the plants like high GH you need GH booster. Still the Plantex have low Mg and not have Calcium.

[Tom Barr]

I've been thinking of this. Only also with lots more Gluteraldehyde than most add directly to their trace mixes -- like the equivalent of 5mLs Excel per 20 gal and with a mix of DTPA, EDDHA and maybe EDTA (if starting with CSM+B). I'm just pretty sure it's not worth the pain in the ass of people's orders and shipping and shit for hobby dough, you know? But I have Cidex Pro here and looking for MnSO4 (what would Tropica do?) and Boric acid (just because) and will post about it after this science project I'm doing that you'll like. I would call this trace + algecide + psuedo-carbon "The Good Shit." I'm telling you (Orlando? AquariumFertilizer?) that would sell itself.

Then you are still stuck with shipping a liquid that's a general biocide in diluted form.
USPS is NOT going to ship anything liquid fragile or potentially hazardous.

This loses on all three shipping issues.
Any other trnasport is either in house carriers or regulatored and special packing etc.

The point is to use dry powder, not liquid.
Excel or equivalents are not dry.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Philosophos]

What do you mean? One less hassle!

Regards,
Tom Barr

It also means I get to have yellow water or mix my own traces :p

I guess I'm a little sorry for myself, too. ;)

[Wet]

Then you are still stuck with shipping a liquid that's a general biocide in diluted form.
USPS is NOT going to ship anything liquid fragile or potentially hazardous.

This loses on all three shipping issues.
Any other trnasport is either in house carriers or regulatored and special packing etc.

The point is to use dry powder, not liquid.
Excel or equivalents are not dry.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Legality... right. I agree, then: but I think the magic in marketing this is targeting those folks who want an already pre-mixed solution that provides a plus vs Tropica or CSM+B. (And, as a guy who's used Microplex, CSM+B, Greg's old CSM+B+Extra Fe, Flourish, and TMG, and DTPA and EDDHA sources of Fe, I gotta say TMG is the best micro nutrient I've ever used. The rest are pretty much the same, but I'd give a slight edge to Microplex. This makes me wonder about Mn -- hobbyist level tests coming -- which, in Microplex and Tropica, is a in a higher ratio to other heavy metals v CSM + B [and thanks for pointing this out, Neil Frank]. In either case I think it significant you and lots of other folks happily dose plus chelators in addition to these other micro nutrient fertilizers, save for [generally] Tropica folk. Relevant here is Tropica folk get two chelators out of the bottle.)

In terms of marketing -- and I am not a marketing person, though I sit in on stuff for architecture issues and find it amazing people specialize in marketing :) -- I think the market asking for a product is the guy who's willing to tackle the major stuff (macros, CO2) but doesn't want to deal with the bagillion and 1 micros we talk about and who'd happily buy TPN if it was at the old TMG prices. "Good Shit, a Trace Fertilizer" has to be more than Flourish and less than TPN to work, in my mind at least.

So, DIY'd Good Shit it is :)

[Tom Barr]

Well, there's some rational to using TMG or brand name of most of the DIY stuff, but traces are not used in larger amounts for many folks, eg if you have 20-55 gal tank, but if you 500 gallons worth of aquarium.........
Liquids pose an issue for shipping though cheaply.

It's better to sell it dry, then have the buyer mix in some Excel etc.
You can add other anti fungal or dry mix acids to the powder.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Brian20]

I sell nutrients sometimes here and I sold more liquid ferts than dry ferts, even when I say that dry are better, people like liquid because it's so easy to dose.

[Philosophos]

Ease of dosing is a big part of why I mix stock solutions. One bottle, one measuring cup, it's faster than feeding.

[Tug]

Hi all,

This makes me wonder about Mn -- hobbyist level tests coming -- which, in Microplex and Tropica, is a in a higher ratio to other heavy metals v CSM + B [and thanks for pointing this out, Neil Frank]. I've been wondering the same thing myself. Given the amount of extra Fe we decide to add and the levels of copper in CSM (plus what's in the tap water) are Mn levels lower then needed?. For example I add 1/32 tsp CSM+B to 56L water and Fe DTPA. My levels of iron are around 0.225 every time I dose. My tap water has copper levels ~ 0.008-0.1ppm. One calculator out there says CSM is adding an additional 0.18ppm of Copper per dose. :confused: To be honest I haven't seen any problems that look like a deficiency. Could CSM+B use additional Mn?


I sell nutrients sometimes here and I sold more liquid ferts than dry ferts, even when I say that dry are better, people like liquid because it's so easy to dose. Maybe we need to explain the versatility of dry fertilizers. Along with dosing the water in their fish tank explain how it is also possible to add x amount to a gallon of water to feed house plants. Hell, I'd like to know that myself. :)

[Biollante]

Biollante I think that depends of the plants, If the plants like high GH you need GH booster. Still the Plantex have low Mg and not have Calcium.

Hi Brian,

Huh?

I suppose that is true but... I am lost. :o

I usually recommend GH boosters after water changes, to raise it at least 1 dGH, unless the person is concerned about high GH.

The GH Booster I use is ~43% Calcium Sulphate dihydrate and ~14% Magnesium Sulfate Heptahydrate, granted it is not much. I generally add Calcium via Calcium Chloride and Magnesium via Epsom Salt.

I am still confused, but I hope this clarifies whatever it was. :o

Biollante

[jonny_ftm]

I also found that liquid is much more easy to dose then dry, until... some weeks ago

The Salifert NO3 test kit comes with very tiny spoons. I could measure that 1 spoon, filled with a dry compound (K2SO4, CSM+B, DTPA Fe 10%) that you press against the wall of container so that it is flat weighs 0.2g

Unless you have a nano, this is enough to dose micro/DTPA. Now, dosing dry takes me much less time then opening container, using syringe, clean it... for liquid ferts like TPN

[Tug]

It was mostly dumb luck but all three of my stock solutions are dosed at one cap (5mL) for a 20 gallon tank. Makes it very easy to remember. It took a lot of sweat equity (mostly Philosophos and Tom's) to get there. I would say yes, CSM+B and dry fertilizers make up for the amount of time we need to understand them.

Concerning CSM, flourish and Mn. Looks as if CSM has it beat there as well. I don't have the experience to know the difference, (to be sure) but here is a comparison http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/traces.htm

[Brian20]

well, I use a lot of conversions to get exactly what Quantity I dose in 5ml of my liquid fert. I will use it for my nano (5G) I have the paper hidden in my drawer so I can make the solution again easy.

[Brian20]

I saw that flourish have a lot more Iron than Plantex, I thought that plantes have a lot more.

[Tug]

Some iron chelates hold up better then others depending in the water (KH). CSM+B uses FeEDTA which stays chelated longer then the ferrous (Fe) gluconate in Flourish.

My concern with Plantex CSM+B is the amount of Mn compared to ferts like TPN.

[Tom Barr]

I also found that liquid is much more easy to dose then dry, until... some weeks ago

The Salifert NO3 test kit comes with very tiny spoons. I could measure that 1 spoon, filled with a dry compound (K2SO4, CSM+B, DTPA Fe 10%) that you press against the wall of container so that it is flat weighs 0.2g

Unless you have a nano, this is enough to dose micro/DTPA. Now, dosing dry takes me much less time then opening container, using syringe, clean it... for liquid ferts like TPN

My issue with liquids=> dribbly messy yellow stains on the flow, counters, etc.
I ended up using an eppindoff micropippet.

I have the self filling chamber bottles, but none of them suited the amoutns I needed.
I think for tanks under 20 or so gallons, solutions are fine.
1-5 ml plastic pippetes work well there and should not be too messy.

I still use a large syringe for larger amounts for my tanks, or a nice bulb pippette.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Tom Barr]

well, I use a lot of conversions to get exactly what Quantity I dose in 5ml of my liquid fert. I will use it for my nano (5G) I have the paper hidden in my drawer so I can make the solution again easy.

I'm not so sure anyone needs to be so extact given the uncertainly of how traces and cheates behave in water chemically, as well as the demands/limitations biogically in plants.
Same for most nutrients. Smaller tank will need more accurate and careful dosing, but I wonder if it makes much difference.
I still would use liquids for small than 20 Gal personally.



Regards,
Tom Barr

[Philosophos]

I don't have any issues with mess or dosing time with liquids. One small graduated cylinder does the job; rinse it out, pour, dump; It's about as easy as pouring a shot sober. Dosing takes me seconds.

Tom, I thought big tanks wouldn't do so well either. As it is though, I've got things with solubility down to the point where 1ml does the job for 12L @ 3x a week. 1L doses 100 gal of column for 10-12 weeks this way.

[shoggoth43]

Dosing takes me seconds. LOL. Usually I refer to it as drinking, but dosing works too. :D

-
S


I don't have any issues with mess or dosing time with liquids. One small graduated cylinder does the job; rinse it out, pour, dump; It's about as easy as pouring a shot sober. Dosing takes me seconds.

Tom, I thought big tanks wouldn't do so well either. As it is though, I've got things with solubility down to the point where 1ml does the job for 12L @ 3x a week. 1L doses 100 gal of column for 10-12 weeks this way.

[shoggoth43]

For house plants I usually just bank on there being some surplus of nutrients in the tank water with the weekly WC/reset. When draining I just fill up a couple water jugs and use that to water the plants instead of dumping it outside or down the drain. Seems easier to use the "expensive" ferts for the tanks instead of the houseplants.

-
S


Hi all,
I've been wondering the same thing myself. Given the amount of extra Fe we decide to add and the levels of copper in CSM (plus what's in the tap water) are Mn levels lower then needed?. For example I add 1/32 tsp CSM+B to 56L water and Fe DTPA. My levels of iron are around 0.225 every time I dose. My tap water has copper levels ~ 0.008-0.1ppm. One calculator out there says CSM is adding an additional 0.18ppm of Copper per dose. :confused: To be honest I haven't seen any problems that look like a deficiency. Could CSM+B use additional Mn?

Maybe we need to explain the versatility of dry fertilizers. Along with dosing the water in their fish tank explain how it is also possible to add x amount to a gallon of water to feed house plants. Hell, I'd like to know that myself. :)

[Wet]

Tug,

I think we'll need to experiment with Mn much like we've played with Fe to answer that question. But if we work with the assumption that Mn in Tropica and Microplex's ratio is advantageous, I think the place to start is working towards a 1:1 ratio of Mn:Fe. I don't think ratios matter at all to plants but it's not a bad way to frame it out as working towards minimum and maximum limits. When I play I am probably just going to start with bumping up Plantex CSM+B to 1:1 Fe:Mn without adjusting other nutrients, as well as continue dosing additional Fe from DTPA/EDDHA without adjusting Mn further. But that's just me willing to give a mix's worth of "lets see" to this one.

[Tug]

Hi shoggoth,
To feed the outside plants as a foliar spray is what I should of said. I do use the tank water for the house plants. Jugs are a good idea. I just move my plants to the bathtub on WC day once a week. The rest goes out to the garden on the terrace.

I just fill up a couple water jugs and use that to water the plants instead of dumping it outside or down the drain. Seems easier to use the "expensive" ferts for the tanks instead of the houseplants.
More expensive then the stuff I use outside every two weeks? Not by much.


I think we'll need to experiment with Mn much like we've played with Fe to answer that question.
Thanks Wet,
I'm not quite that advanced. However, my tank is slowly coming along. EI and Plantex are the least of my problems. I can see the truth in what everyone is saying. Slow and stead wins the race. I would love to see the results of your findings. Nice to meet you in a virtual sort of way.


My issue with liquids=> dribbly messy yellow stains What is interesting to me, if Chuck Gadd's calculator isn't too far off, I end up dosing the same EI recommended weekly dose using stock solutions. Different application, but same weekly dose as EI basically. I'm not sure why I thought liquid dosing would be that different from dry doses. And yeah, I've been called out for the little yellow spots on the rug. :p

[Tom Barr]

Tug, sounds like spastic bladder syndrome.

Stay away from members of Congress, one good groping and things might be a real mess.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Tug]

Now that you mention it. The problem does seam to happen after a pub crawl. :o

[shoggoth43]

Perhaps you should cut down on your "dosing" while at the pub. :D

-
S


Now that you mention it. The problem does seam to happen after a pub crawl. :o

[barbarossa4122]

Legality... right. I agree, then: but I think the magic in marketing this is targeting those folks who want an already pre-mixed solution that provides a plus vs Tropica or CSM+B. (And, as a guy who's used Microplex, CSM+B, Greg's old CSM+B+Extra Fe, Flourish, and TMG, and DTPA and EDDHA sources of Fe, I gotta say TMG is the best micro nutrient I've ever used. The rest are pretty much the same, but I'd give a slight edge to Microplex. This makes me wonder about Mn -- hobbyist level tests coming -- which, in Microplex and Tropica, is a in a higher ratio to other heavy metals v CSM + B [and thanks for pointing this out, Neil Frank]. In either case I think it significant you and lots of other folks happily dose plus chelators in addition to these other micro nutrient fertilizers, save for [generally] Tropica folk. Relevant here is Tropica folk get two chelators out of the bottle.)

In terms of marketing -- and I am not a marketing person, though I sit in on stuff for architecture issues and find it amazing people specialize in marketing :) -- I think the market asking for a product is the guy who's willing to tackle the major stuff (macros, CO2) but doesn't want to deal with the bagillion and 1 micros we talk about and who'd happily buy TPN if it was at the old TMG prices. "Good Shit, a Trace Fertilizer" has to be more than Flourish and less than TPN to work, in my mind at least.

So, DIY'd Good Shit it is :)

Hi Wet,

Do you happen to know how much Microplex to use to replace the CSM ? Right now I am making my micros stock solution using 2 TBS of CSM for 500ml of water but, I would like to try Microplex for a while.

[Tug]

Hi Barb,
I found these links, http://www.aquaticplantenthusiasts.com/fertilizer/3339-diy-tropica-plant-nutrition.html
and http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fertilizers-water-parameters/120385-diy-tropica-plant-nutrition-mix-your-4.html
Wet suggest about 1.6x more MicroPlex then CSM+B.

But, looking at how these two compare, wouldn't it be easier to add Mg & Mn to CSM+B? I'm not sure what the advantage is by starting with Miller's MicroPlex, less iron and more copper. :confused:

CSM+B Trace
Fe 7% Mg 1.50% Cu 0.1% B 1.18%
Mn 2% Zn 0.4% Mo 0.06%
Miller Microplex
Mg-5.4% Bo-0.5% Co-0.05%
Cu-1.5% Fe-4.0% Mn-4.0%
Mb-0.1% Zn-1.5%

3063.0 mg Plantex CSM+B into your
500.0 mL container, with doses of 20.0 mL
into a 70.0 L tank gives:

Mn = 0.033ppm
B = 0.021ppm
Mo = 0.001ppm
Mg = 0.025ppm
Cu = 0.002ppm
Zn = 0.006ppm
Fe = 0.114ppm
5003.0 mg Miller's MicroPlex into your
500.0 mL container, with doses of 20.0 mL
into a 70.0 L tank gives:

Mn = 0.114ppm
B = 0.014ppm
Mo = 0.003ppm
Mg = 0.155ppm
Cu = 0.043ppm
Zn = 0.040ppm
Fe = 0.114ppm

Wet,
Will your calculator show the concentrations for Cu or Mb in MicroPlex in the future?


My math brain is on line.
http://calc.petalphile.com/

[barbarossa4122]

Hi Barb,
I found these links, http://www.aquaticplantenthusiasts.com/fertilizer/3339-diy-tropica-plant-nutrition.html
and http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fertilizers-water-parameters/120385-diy-tropica-plant-nutrition-mix-your-4.html
Wet suggest about 1.6x more MicroPlex then CSM+B.

But, looking at how these two compare, wouldn't it be easier to add Mg & Mn to CSM+B? I'm not sure what the advantage is by starting with Miller's MicroPlex, less iron and more copper. :confused:

CSM+B Trace
Fe 7% Mg 1.50% Cu 0.1% B 1.18%
Mn 2% Zn 0.4% Mo 0.06%
Miller Microplex
Mg-5.4% Bo-0.5% Co-0.05%
Cu-1.5% Fe-4.0% Mn-4.0%
Mb-0.1% Zn-1.5%

3063.0 mg Plantex CSM+B into your
500.0 mL container, with doses of 20.0 mL
into a 70.0 L tank gives:

Mn = 0.033ppm
B = 0.021ppm
Mo = 0.009ppm
Mg = 0.025ppm
Cu = 0.016ppm
Zn = 0.006ppm
Fe = 0.114ppm
5003.0 mg Miller's MicroPlex into your
500.0 mL container, with doses of 20.0 mL
into a 70.0 L tank gives:

Mn = 0.114ppm
B = 0.014ppm
Mo = 0.003ppm
Mg = 0.155ppm
Zn = 0.040ppm
Fe = 0.114ppm

Wet,
Will your calculator show the concentrations for Cu or Mb in MicroPlex in the future?


My math brain is on line.
http://calc.petalphile.com/

Hi Tug,

I was thinking the same before I fell asleep last night b'c I have lots of rcs and I am a little bit worry about the copper. Anyway I only bought 25 g from some dude just to try it.

[Tug]

RCS should be fine, but you could mix the two. Say 3 teaspoons of CSM+B and 5 teaspoons of MicroPlex. That would make your Cu dose around 0.04 (maybe a little higher). The LC50 for CuSO4 is around 0.46ppm for cherry shrimp.

3 tsp of CSM+B and 5 tsp of MicroPlex
mixed in your
500.0 mL container, with doses of 15.0 mL
into a 50.0 gal tank gives:

Mn = 0.16ppm
Mo = 0.004ppm
Mg = 0.19ppm
Zn = 0.05ppm
Fe = 0.25ppm
Cu = 0.046ppm

Your dose of 6.0 tsp Plantex CSM+B into your
500.0 mL container, with doses of 15.0 mL
into a 50.0 gal tank gives:

Mn = 0.08ppm
Mo = 0.002ppm
Mg = 0.06ppm
Zn = 0.02ppm
Fe = 0.27ppm
Cu = 0.004ppm

[barbarossa4122]

RCS should be fine, but you could mix the two. Say 3 teaspoons of CSM+B and 5 teaspoons of MicroPlex. That would make your Cu dose around 0.04 (maybe a little higher). The LC50 for CuSO4 is around 0.46ppm for cherry shrimp.

3 tsp of CSM+B and 5 tsp of MicroPlex
mixed in your
500.0 mL container, with doses of 15.0 mL
into a 50.0 gal tank gives:

Mn = 0.16ppm
Mo = 0.01ppm
Mg = 0.23ppm
Zn = 0.05ppm
Fe = 0.25ppm
Cu ~ 0.041ppm :confused:

Your dose of 6.0 tsp Plantex CSM+B into your
500.0 mL container, with doses of 15.0 mL
into a 50.0 gal tank gives:

Mn = 0.08ppm
Mo = 0.02ppm
Mg = 0.06ppm
Zn = 0.02ppm
Fe = 0.27ppm
Cu = 0.037ppm

Darn, did not cross my mind to mix the stuff:) Great Idea Tug, thanks again.

Oh,

The LC50 for CuSO4 What is that ?

[Tug]

I no longer know what I did with the original study. Philosophos passed it on to me before he became a mountain man in the hills of Idaho. Basically LC50 stands for the theoretical lethal concentration for 50 per cent of a group of animals. In toxicology, the median lethal dose, LD50 (abbreviation for “Lethal Dose, 50%”), LC50 (Lethal Concentration, 50%) or LCt50 (Lethal Concentration & Time) of a toxic substance or radiation is the dose required to kill half the members of a tested population after a specified test duration.

[barbarossa4122]

Interesting. Thanks Tug.

[jeff5614]

Hi Tug,

I was thinking the same before I fell asleep last night b'c I have lots of rcs and I am a little bit worry about the copper. Anyway I only bought 25 g from some dude just to try it.

Hello from "some dude".

[nipat]

---he became a mountain man in the hills of Idaho.---

You kidding?

Haven't seen his post here and other forums for months, though.

[Wet]

Wet,
Will your calculator show the concentrations for Cu or Mb in MicroPlex in the future?

Hey Tug. You've got it now. Sorry for missing this.


I'm not sure what the advantage is by starting with Miller's MicroPlex, less iron and more copper.
One reason to use Microplex is that it already has Mn in good quantity. Another is it seems to cloud (dissolved) and clump (in storage) less than CSM+B. You make a good point: each of these things are less important than the potential Cu toxicity, depending on what targets a person doses to. If concerned about Cu in particular, I also agree it's not worth the time and money to reconstitute CSM+B vs the worry of adding copper to a tank.