What is going wrong with EI in my tank

[guy tillmans]

Hi

I'm having a planted tank, 80G. 4 tld bulbs of 36 w, 10 hours/day. Estimated 2 w/g. My tank is running almost 1 year and i was never satisfied about the growth of my plants. I'v had always algae issue's. (I try to post pictures but i cant find on the site how to do this). Severe amount of thread/fuzz and green spot algae. I've a canister filter 300g/h.
Some plants i have : downoi H.zosterofolia, Mayaca fluviatilis, R.Rotundofilia Red and green, hair grass L.cardinalis

I dose 3/w 4 ppm kno3 and 1 ppm po4. Also 3/w micro's 20 ml of profito(easy-life). That's the doubled recommended dose. My kh is 4-5 ang Gh 5-6.
I'm running a controled co2 system. Ph is set at 6.25 by co2. Assuming that this should be enough co2 . I've checked the ph by a testset and the ph of the water is about 6. No.. i've no wood or other decoration stuff in my tank. Just sand and plants(behalve of the fish:) ). I also installed a drop checker just like Tom said. I made a 4 kh solution. De color of the DC is green. Now i crank up my co2 by lowering de ph of the controler, untill my DC is green/yellowish, assuming that co2 is limiting. Is it really limiting??

WC once/week 50% with water h 4-5.
I'm running Ei now for 3 months. I'v not noticed an improvement on plant growth.
What could be limiting??
once 3/6 months i do canister maintenance, depending on the flow of the outlet. Could the canister be the cause??


thanks a lot

[Tom Barr]

Cleaning filters, cleaning the tank in general are good ideas.
Large water change will re set the nutrients.
Light is stable.
Prune off any dead or rot, keep plant biomass good and healthy.


What is left?

CO2 is about it.

To manipulate this, add a bit more until you see good pearling bubbles on the plants, but not so much the fish are affected in any way. I typically go very slow here. You already most likely have been adding low CO2 for 3 months, another week will not hurt.

Add just a little bit more each 1-2 days and watch the fish at different times during the day, say 1-2 hours in, 4-5 hours and right before the lights go off.

Note plant health, fish behavior, and see if there's any new algae growth.

It's a pretty simple issue of cleaning things, gardening, adding nutrients/Water changes and then slowly adjusting the CO2.

Sometimes the real test kit should be the plants/fish, not a DC or a pH controller.
The pH can be affected by the type of KH that is present, there are forms of non carbonate alkalinity that show up as KH, the test kits measure total alkalinity, not solely carbonate alkalinity.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[guy tillmans]

Do you think it's de co2 Tom?? When i look on de co2/kh chart i would almost have 100 ppm co2 in my tank. I know that that isn't so, but if de solely carbonate would be 3 , my co2 should be enough(apro 40-50 ppm).

I will follow your advice in increasing the co2 level. In what time should i see result in plant growth??

Is my dosing regimen Ok?? (12 ppm kno3 and 3 ppm po4/week)

thanks

[guy tillmans]

And.. my plants are pearling ... always, but pearling doesn't always mean that your plants are healthy. (leakage can also cause pearling).

[Tom Barr]

Well, if you honestly, and I mean honestly think it's not the CO2, then you really are stuck. And then start questioning basic advice.

Because it's a straight forward process to rule out the nutrients as a cause, and light is not that intense, water changes are done, clean the filter, trim the plants.

There's just not that much left other than a little time to let things settle down/patience. There's something big going wrong if you have a lot of algae.

No way around that.

Pearling means you can almost see the plants grow, and if the CO2 is good, EI dosing, some plants should grow several cm per day.

If you do not see good excellent plant health, then you need to review what else you are doing that is not allowing the plants to grow well/fast. I've heard every possible assurance that CO2 is correct from hobbyists for decades now.

Hell, I screw things up with CO2 and think it's fine, but then I also know to take my own advice and always check and recheck CO2.

Everyone, ADA, myself, you, we get burned by CO2 if we do not watch it and keep a close eye on the tanks. You can reduce the light intensity and that should help until things are more stable.

I've had folks say their CO2 was 200ppm according to the chart, yet their fish where fine and they had nice plant growth like folks that also said they had 20-30ppm CO2.............Both sets of folks used pH meters, but the KH is the most likely issue.

Just rule everything else out first, then slowly and methodically add progressively more CO2 by turning the needle valve ea ch 1-2 days and watch.

Ignore your test kits for moment here and try this and keep up on the water changes, pruning, filter cleaning, etc. Use the bubble count per second as a gauge/ruler to measure differences.

90-95%, maybe more, of algae related issues are CO2 problems.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[VaughnH]

It would help a lot to see a picture of the tank. Sometimes people have far too few plants and they get algae as a result. Other times people have allowed the plants to grow so dense that the water circulation is poor, and they get algae as a result.

How do you get the water to circulate well in the tank? Your filter output isn't likely to be adequate for that, so do you have a powerhead or other means of getting the water to move around in the tank? Poor water circulation will cause far too little CO2 to reach some of the plants.

[guy tillmans]

Thanks tom for your comment, i will follow your advice.

VaughnH: I've a powerhead in my tank and the flow seems to be good . I'm convinced that co2 level may be the problem, so i go working on it. I'll like to post some pictures but i don't know how to do it. Is there a post or topic on this site about this??

thxs

[Tom Barr]

Just go through things step by step and make sure you can rule out things like the filter, cleaning the tank, water changes, good flow until you are left with one or two things and then try and manipulate those.

This is a simple method to test one thing at a time.
EI is just a labor reducing method, I use higher % water changes to keep the range tighter when testing things and more frequent(say 2-3x a week).

Then I do not need to test the water for those parameters, light is stable once measured. Flow can be measured using microbubbles flowing through the tank and their patterns of flow. Filter and other cleaning issues are self evident:o

So now it's down to the O2 and CO2 etc.

Maybe there is a leak, maybe there is more off gassing than you might think, maybe the CO2 is not getting to the plants as well as it could.

Maybe the tank is now using more CO2 than in the past.
Maybe certain species are much more aggressive at CO2 uptake than other species in the aquarium, leaving some to struggle and stunt while others might flourish?

That's common when there's some CO2, but not enough.
Algae is rarely an issue if the CO2 is good, the tank is well maintained, water changes etc, pruning, dosing is done often, good moderate light.

We all get a little skeptical of our own notions about algae and CO2.
But we need to toss those old thoughts out and start fresh and really look carefully at CO2.

I sound like a broken record on this topic, but it's as old as the hills.



Regards,
Tom Barr

[VaughnH]

Thanks tom for your comment, i will follow your advice.

VaughnH: I've a powerhead in my tank and the flow seems to be good . I'm convinced that co2 level may be the problem, so i go working on it. I'll like to post some pictures but i don't know how to do it. Is there a post or topic on this site about this??

thxs

To post a photo you need first to upload your photo to a photo hosting site, like Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket (http://photobucket.com/), which most people use, or VillagePhotos-Free photo hosting, free image hosting, picture upload, free picture hosting, eBay selling tools, listing management, picture hosting and image management. (http://www.villagephotos.com/) which I use. Those are free photo hosting sites. Once you upload the photo there, you will be able to copy the url for a specific photo there, then, using "go advanced" button at the bottom of the box where you type your message, takes you to a new place to type the message, and at the top of that box is a row of symbols, one of which looks like a mountain with the moon over it. Click that and it gives a place to paste the url for a photo. That will put that photo in your comment.

[guy tillmans]

Thanks everybody , tomorrow i'll post some pictures.

[guy tillmans]

Here are some pictures of my tank.

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/guytillmans1965/DSC03586.jpg
Some Mayaca species. Just the new tops are green , but the rest is "captured" by algae

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/guytillmans1965/DSC03588.jpg
Also the mayaca fluviatilis

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/guytillmans1965/DSC03584.jpg
Here an overal picture of a part of my tank

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/guytillmans1965/DSC03587.jpg
Downoi is still a bit pale,



I'm increasing now my co2 level and reduced the light from 4 to 3 bulbs( 1.5 wpg).
I'm asking myself now what ill be the behavior of the fish when the co2 gets to high? Do they go to the surfuce? A lot of my fish arehiding now between the dense plants. They will come out for feeding or sometimes just come out for swim around the tank, but they look like a bit "shy". Is this due to high co2 level?

thanks

[Tom Barr]

If the Rotala is doing that, you have too little CO2.
the D diandra is also a good case for low CO2.
Things look as if they have improved a little recently after a bad bout.
The plant biomass and the look of the tank seems like things where doing well, and as the plants grew in more, then things started doing poorly.

This looks like poor CO2.
Nutrients are easy to rule out. You might keep the light higher.

Try this: do a 50-60% water change maybe 1 hour after the lights come on and note the health of the plants afterwards. If the plants really do a lot better, try another water change like this 2 days later and so on. If the plants start doing much better, it's more than likely the CO2. Note: you dose after each water change also. This should tell you if it's the CO2 or not as the new tap will often add a fair amount of CO2 and the plants should grow well for awhile afterwards. Algae does not like this either, so it will tell you somethings and help the tank either way.

Keep an eye on your fish as you adjust the CO2.
Also, keep an eye on the plants.

This balance and knowing how much to add for the best plant growth is a key for folks in this hobby. My advice is to learn this more than any single thing.

The rest are basic things that aquarist can rule out and should do: water change/pruning/dose/clean filter etc.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[ccLansman]

are the pictures working for anyone else, i am having similar issues and it would be nice to see if the pics compare to my problems.

[guy tillmans]

Nutrients are easy to rule out. You might keep the light higher.



Do you mean with this: the light more away from the watersurface or increasing back the intensity from 1,5 to 2 wpg.

thanks

[captain_bu]

Either way will work. Raising the light reduces the intensity of the light reaching the bottom of the tank. Dropping the wpg but leaving the light at the same height in relation to the tank will also reduce the amount of light reaching the bottom of the tank.

[guy tillmans]

Either way will work. Raising the light reduces the intensity of the light reaching the bottom of the tank. Dropping the wpg but leaving the light at the same height in relation to the tank will also reduce the amount of light reaching the bottom of the tank.

TThis is not what i meant. I said : increasing the light from 1.5 wpg to 2 wpg. Not decreasing (dropping)

[captain_bu]

sorry for misreading your post Guy....

[ccLansman]

hey guy could you possibly pm me the direct links to the pics?

[guy tillmans]

My downoi is still pale/white Sometimes it's trying to get greener, but overall it is like this. I've tried everything , increasing co2 (still working about it), excess no3 po4, excess micros(3 times the daily dosis). Untill now with no noticable improvement. My lights are still 2 wpg and overall little thread algae ang GSA.


http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/guytillmans1965/DSC03688.jpg

At the picture the tops look a bit green /yellow, but it is really white!!

[Tom Barr]

Yes, it looks a bit pale, looks a bit like low Mg.

Still, the algae and appearance of the plants, the light, nutrients etc, suggest low CO2.

Plants will still grow and some will do better than others..........plant=plant competition looks like it is occurring for CO2.

So you need to add just a bit more CO2, do so very slowly and adjust each day a little bit more and watch.

If you think about things and how plants grow, what was occurring earlier before the plants grew in?

Less plant biomass= less CO2 demand.
As the plants grow in and fill up the aquarium, they want even more CO2.

So what worked okay before, might not later if things are not trimmed and pruned routinely, or if you planted the tank and are waiting for it to "fill in". Some plants are more adapted to compete for CO2, or perhaps N than other species.

If you are low or limiting for some species, but not others, then the weaker plants will suffer. This is why many folks might have trouble with certain species, but be fine with easier species.

The easy to grow plants gobble up all the CO2 or nutrients etc.

Still, the species of algae here looks very much like low CO2 is the issue, but be careful, adding more and make sure there's some surface movement, good flow etc in the tank, you can always add more CO2, do not worry there, main issue is getting good growth for all plants and no fish issues with the gas.

Algae might take a few days to respond, or the plant's new growth will not be infected. Then you prune off the old algae covered parts.

The Rotala green should respond the fastest out of the species you have.
Just make sure the Downoi gets enough light, do water changes(the more you want to do, the better.).

Water change will mitigate CO2 issues, so will Excel/Easy Carb to some degree.
So you will know you are on the right track if things start to improve using those and watch new growth.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[guy tillmans]

Ok , i'm still increasing my co2 bit by bit. Now my controler is set on Ph 6.2(kh is 4-5). I know you said urlier that those are no absolute figures/numbers. I don't know if i can increase the co2 anymore because of the fact that my in-line reactor is every day full off co2 and comes unsolved withthe water in my tank. I've tried less flow/more flow through the reactor but it doesn't seem to help. It's a big reactor (diameter 5 cm by 30 centimeters). Can it be that there is a moment that the water doesn't take op the co2 anymore??
I started to use also easy carbo , just as you said.(1.5 the recommended dose).

I'm i bit "off the road" with my EI. Should i dose the recommended dose ? halve dose ? or above the recommended dose? (2 wpg light).

I also do not use fertilized soil , just sand, could that be an issue? (i know EI must work wihout fertilized soil)

thanks a lot

[ccLansman]

you should be fine without the fertailized soil, most of the plants should be taking the nutrients up via the water column. If you have a high plant load i would go above the recommended EI for your tank size. More ferts cant hurt unless you really overdose the thing(like >5 recommended)

[guy tillmans]

Yes, it looks a bit pale, looks a bit like low Mg.

Regards,
Tom Barr

My gh is 9. Could i run in to mg deficientie unless there should be enough (gh =9)??
Should i add mg (mgso4) and how much?

[VaughnH]

Adding enough MgSO4 to increase the concentration of Mg by 10 ppm couldn't possibly be harmful, and it might help, so why not do so? If you do it, I suggest adding a little every day until you get that much. (Calculate the amounts, don't try to test for them)

[guy tillmans]

Just add Totally 10 ppm / week? so 3 to 4 times 3 ppm??

[VaughnH]

It isn't a critical nutrient that has to be there in a specific amount. My point was that even if you already have enough Mg in the water, adding another 10 ppm, provided it is done over a few days time, should do no harm. And, if you actually have too little Mg, that might be enough to give you an adequate amount of Mg. My rough calculation is that 1 teaspoon of MgSO4-7H2O gives about 1 ppm in 100 gallons of water. You should double check that to be sure.

[Tom Barr]

Guyt, you can have 5, 9, 20 degrees GH and not enough Mg.
GH is both the Ca and the MG, not a nice mix of each at 3:1 ratio etc.

So it might be all Ca++, no Mg++.
You can test for it if you wish.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[guy tillmans]

I'm still battling my algae, instead of getting rid of it, the amount increases. Most of my algae are thread algae (some hard species and some soft /slimy species). What have i done last weeks : Cleaned the bottem very deep, added gh+ (mg and ca), increased the co2 and lost some fish , so i assume that there was enough co2 (now i turned back the co2 untill the behavior of the fish was normal (kh now 4 en ph 6.5)). 2 times p/w 50% wc, and still the algae keep coming. I increased the current by adding a hydor pump. Every day i keep pruning my tank like a fish watches over there bread.
Finally (now) i reduced my lightperiod to 8 hours and went back to 1.2 wpg for some time(was 2 wpg) hoping that this will help a bit. Ei 3 times p/w half dose. I don't know what to do anymore and can't find the key to succes.
Can high co2 levels increase the growth of algae if there is a lack of something else (macro/micro)? Perhaps must do i have to concentrate myself on low tech tanks if thats easier:(

greats

[guy tillmans]

It feels like that you have all ingedients in your kitchen but can't cook a good meal!!

[VaughnH]

I know what you are feeling, and I very often feel the same way. My algae is BBA, simple for everyone else to elimiinate, but not me. I still enjoy my aquarium so much I am willing to keep trying to eliminate the BBA. If you enjoy yours too, just enjoy it and keep on trying to achieve the ultimate goal of no algae of any kind.

Reducing light intensity should make our algae elimination efforts work much better. I now have a single 55 watt light, suspended 6 inches above my 45 gallon tank, and I still struggle with BBA, but it doesn't overwhelm me anymore. One morning I will wake up and it will all be gone.

[guy tillmans]

Vaughn , i'm am a believer, and i still keep on working on it , but after you've tried everthing , and still the algae flourish, i sometimes think to quit whit my hobby. But after a few days , my battery is loaded again , and start pruning again.

[Tom Barr]

One thing is to not give up, you can beat it.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Riba]

My (dutch) waterprovider gives me an accurate overview of the water parameters. Does yours do that too? If so, could you give us a link?

Kind regards,
Riba
(for example, this is my overview (http://www.brabantwater.nl/clients/bw/bw_reinwater.nsf/Pompstations/Eindhoven?OpenDocument))

[guy tillmans]

Yes riba , i've got that in pdf, do you want the hole overview (them i've to convert it to a picture and post it) or do you want some particular values, so i can write them down here

[guy tillmans]

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/guytillmans1965/w-1.jpg
this is the list of my waterprovider

It says that there is Boron 28 mcg/liter, Iron 0.005 mcg/l, No3 38 mg/l, mg 13 mg/l, k 2.2 mg/liter, Ca 50 mg/l and po4 0.015 mg/l in my tap water.

Sorry for the picture but i couldn'tget it better, because i would have to split it in several picrures.

[ccLansman]

Don’t give up! First thing that typically happens when modifying co2 levels is an algae outbreak namely BBA. Try doubling up your EI dosing if your tank is heavily planted as it should be  I have a 60gal and I use the 120gal dosing strategy and my plants are doing much better now. Also don’t fret over minute details such as concentration of this or that or the other thing. I can guarantee from experience that the plants and fish won’t mind a little extra on the ferts. Also realize that it takes time for a tank to stabilize when you are making these changes. For me it took about a month of tinkering with the Co2 and EI dosing to get everything growing in nicely and the algae retreating.

ps. IMO if you are using a drop checker, forget the readings and increase the co2 until you see pearling about 3-4 hours into the light cycle. Worked for me, trying to get the checker to green didnt ever work...

[guy tillmans]

Yes thxs but i've lot of thread algae now , i think it comes from the high no3 level in my tap water 38mg/l. I also doese the recommended dose of ei. Lowering light doesn't seem to work ,instead of that i think the algae grow faster now. Pruning helps for one day, if you know what i mean.

[Tom Barr]

I think this is why old Dutch tanks had good results in the distant past, the tap water.

I spoke to friend and he agreed, that's why many elsewhere needed to add PO4 and NO3. All you had to do was large frequent water changes.

If the tap is 38mg/l NO3, is this N-NO3? Or measured as NO3?

Regards,
Tom Barr

[defdac]

I will stick my neck out a little bit here.

There is one weak spot with EI and it seems to be the choice of micros. Many folks do weekly wc and dose one time per week. In this case 3 times a week which is a little bit better.

If you use a really good micro like the ones by Tropica you might be fine.

Why are the Tropica ones better, and that proven over and over again?

It seems to be the HEEDTA and cheap DIY-guys use EDTA/DTPA-based agriculture grade micros like CSM+B. In fact most aquarium fertilizers use EDTA/DTPA. Except Tropica. Many does not say at all which chelator they use. In Sweden we have found an agriculture grade micro named "Mikro+" which also is HEEDTA. Cheap alternative to Tropica.

Two plants that are extremely sinsitive to micro/iron-deficiency: Downoi (P. helferi) and HC. They eat so much iron it's down right ridiculuos.

The downoi you show is 100% micro limitied, most probably iron.

I bet my pants that if you start small daily dosages of a better micro nutrient everthing will start look better in matter of days.

[ceg4048]

I will stick my neck out a little bit here.

There is one weak spot with EI and it seems to be the choice of micros. Many folks do weekly wc and dose one time per week. In this case 3 times a week which is a little bit better.

If you use a really good micro like the ones by Tropica you might be fine.

Why are the Tropica ones better, and that proven over and over again?

It seems to be the HEEDTA and cheap DIY-guys use EDTA/DTPA-based agriculture grade micros like CSM+B. In fact most aquarium fertilizers use EDTA/DTPA. Except Tropica. Many does not say at all which chelator they use. In Sweden we have found an agriculture grade micro named "Mikro+" which also is HEEDTA. Cheap alternative to Tropica.

Two plants that are extremely sinsitive to micro/iron-deficiency: Downoi (P. helferi) and HC. They eat so much iron it's down right ridiculuos.

The downoi you show is 100% micro limitied, most probably iron.

I bet my pants that if you start small daily dosages of a better micro nutrient everthing will start look better in matter of days.

Hey defdac, I'll take that bet, and I'll raise you a a pair of thermal underware. Everyone badmouths CSM+B and talks about how great TPN is at 50X the price. If truth be told I've tried both for weeks on end and I can't see a difference - and I've never seen anyone actually show the difference in a "micro shootout".

While I'll accept what you explain about the chelators I'm not convinced it makes that much of a difference compared to other factors in the tank. I'm a real cheapskate and I get the cheapest micros I can find, like the agriculture grade product here (if you're in the shop it's located two rows below the 25Kg bags of cow manure)=>Chelated Trace Element Mix - £0.00 : The Garden Direct Store, Make the Most Of Your Garden (http://www.gardendirect.co.uk/chelated-trace-element-mix-p-887)

This is P. helferi on cheap DIY-guy EDTA/DTPA based micros:
http://inlinethumb39.webshots.com/22950/2570713050038170470S600x600Q85.jpg

Check this out:
http://inlinethumb23.webshots.com/43606/2752175810038170470S600x600Q85.jpg

Keep it real:
http://inlinethumb42.webshots.com/42473/2550532920038170470S600x600Q85.jpg

It's unlikely the damage shown in the OP's photos are attributable only to low quality micro (in fact wasn't the micro mix Easylife profito?), especially when he reports dosing higher levels than standard. The only other difference I can see between CSM+B and TPN is that TPN has magnesium and CSM+B does not. But, this is no big deal as Mg is either abundant in the tap or it can be added via (cheap) Epsom's salts.

Additionally, the OP reports occurrences of Hair algae which is strongly correlated to poor CO2. That's not going to be a micro issue. As per popular trend it seems, high NO3 was blamed for the algae.

It's much more likely that the tank suffers from any combination of injection rate being too low, or gas ON timing being too late (if solenoid is used) or flow distribution being stagnant at the front substrate level.

A simple test would be to add or to increase Excel/Easycarbo dosing, assuming there are no fauna or other flora which react negatively to this, and/or to add more flow via pumps to direct flow to the front substrate. I've found that most cases of poor carpet plant performance is due to poor flow to the substrate or poor flow rate within the tank in general. If the symptoms are in fact due to a micro deficiency I reckon it's more probable that micros are not being delivered properly to the plant instead of it being just due to cheap micro quality.

Big tanks are problematic due to loss of inertia in such a big space. An 80G tank is big and should get a flow "rating" of about 800 Gallon per hour or more if possible. Things that you can get away with in a small tank are unforgivable in a big tank, and THE cardinal sin in a big high tech tank is poor flow. Not only does the flow rate have to be high but the flow patterns need to be considered as well.

It's also not really clear how much the tank is being dosed. If one miscalculates the mixture then underdosing could easily be the culprit. The typical EI dosing levels for this size are as follows:
3X per week 1 teaspoon (6 grams) KNO3
3X per week 1/4 teaspoon (1.5 grams) KH2PO4
3X per week 2.5 teaspoon (13 grams) MgSO4
2X per week 3/8 teaspoon (1 gram) CSM+B or 20ml TPN (if you insist)

Since shrimp may be adversely affected by injection rate increase, it might be advisable to focus on flow improvement to deliver the nutrients/CO2 more efficiently. Massive flow cures a lot of problems in a big tank. It is entirely possible to have high CO2 which affects the fauna yet to have poor distribution which stifles plant uptake.


Cheers,

[ccLansman]

Ceg4048 for the EI you listed what is the reasoning behind the 2.5tsp of MGS04 3x per week? If its already high in water what does the excess MG help with? Or is it due to the fact that in the 6 days time between water changes all the MG in the tap is used up?

[guy tillmans]

If the tap is 38mg/l NO3, is this N-NO3? Or measured as NO3?

Regards,
Tom Barr[/quote]

Sorry tom but the no3 is 30 mg/l instead of 38 , but still enough i think. The measurement is in NO3.

[guy tillmans]

I will stick my neck out a little bit here.

There is one weak spot with EI and it seems to be the choice of micros. Many folks do weekly wc and dose one time per week. In this case 3 times a week which is a little bit better.

If you use a really good micro like the ones by Tropica you might be fine.

Why are the Tropica ones better, and that proven over and over again?

It seems to be the HEEDTA and cheap DIY-guys use EDTA/DTPA-based agriculture grade micros like CSM+B. In fact most aquarium fertilizers use EDTA/DTPA. Except Tropica. Many does not say at all which chelator they use. In Sweden we have found an agriculture grade micro named "Mikro+" which also is HEEDTA. Cheap alternative to Tropica.

Two plants that are extremely sinsitive to micro/iron-deficiency: Downoi (P. helferi) and HC. They eat so much iron it's down right ridiculuos.

The downoi you show is 100% micro limitied, most probably iron.

I bet my pants that if you start small daily dosages of a better micro nutrient everthing will start look better in matter of days.


Do you think that Profito (easylife) is the problem because of the chelator issue?
What should yoou advise to do increase micros/add iron?

In have 1.5-2 wpg. It is moderate lighted tank, what should be the EI dose then?

Ceg4048 said that there was pour co2 in my tank water, I've increased my co2 (ph 6.1 and kh 4.0)untill my fish where hiding in the plants / not moving anymore, and lost some fish. No improvement in the algae issue. Now i turned back a little the co2 (ph 6.5 by kh 4.0)and my fish are moving again. I'm assuming that my co2 level is alright. I also use a hydor pump and all the leaves are waving a little bit.

thanks folks

[guy tillmans]

Other question, how much light do you advise? I know in the usa they use much more light , which can cause much more problems. I've 4 bulbs of 36 w, that gives a max of 2wpg.

[Tom Barr]

Your light is fine, you might try using 8-9 hours.
Then increase once the algae is reduced.

No need to add much KNO3(plenty f NO3 in the tap water), however, you will want to add K2SO4 instead.

CO2 is likely fine, do not stress fish, you should not have to ever do that to get good CO2.

I'd add about 1 tsp of K2SO4 after each water change and about another mid week.
Still, with the algae issues, using Easy Carb for about 3-4 weeks plus 2x a week water changes should improve things for you.

Then you can relax.

Everyone has their issues like this at some point.
But the issues do go away and if you keep after things, then it really shortens the time.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[guy tillmans]

Thxs tom
I'll do so . I also have ro water . What would you prefer: mix my tap water with ro water (no3 will be then 15) Or use only ro water( add kh+(for ponds)) untill kh is 4.0 , or use only tap water??

[guy tillmans]

New update:

I've tried very hard to figure out what the problem is with my tank, but again i don't know what to do. For 4 weeks i lowered my light intensity at 7 hours of 3 36w bulbs. Increased po4 to 2 ppm en no3 to 20 ppm, no significant improvement of the pale p.helferi, they keep white in their haerts. I increased co2 untill my fish behaving mad. some of them i lost. So i turned back the co2 untill ph is 6.5(kh 4). Drop c. is yellowish/green.
I add 3 times/w, double dose of profito( so in total 2x the weekly dose over a week).
Rotala's look fine and have good growth, and pearling like mad.

still have fuzz/beard algae problems.
I don't know what to do anymore

[defdac]

I add 3 times/w, double dose of profito( so in total 2x the weekly dose over a week).

People in Sweden are also having trouble with iron deficiencies using Profito or other EDTA-based micros, especiall with the P. helferi.

I suggest testing Tropica or Seachem or HEEDTA-based micros instead. You will see the result in just a couple of days.

P. helferi is by far the most iron demanding plant I've ever had. It's close to ridiculous. HC comes next.

[Gerryd]

Guy,

Please do not give up! We all have been there, trust me.

So let's review:

80 gal tank
2 wpg
300 gph canister

Let's stop right here.

What type/size of filtration do you have? This rate is < 4 times per tank volume per hour, which is IME way too low...........I would suggest 10x min

Plus what type of powerhead are you using and what rating? I think you need a more powerful filter or an additional one.......plus maybe a powerhead or two.

Can you see all plants getting water blown past them? This was key for my carpet plants. Stems did well, but carpets were not doing well. Got some GOOD flow past those areas and in a couple of days, saw improvement, less algae, bits of growth, etc.

The pics of your tank look like mine did before I resolved my C02 issues

Can you detail more of your c02 delivery systtem? It may not be efficient enoug for your requirements......or may not be circulate sufficient/efficiently around the tank..........is there a blockage, kinked hose? Is the delivery system working optimally?

I think the issue may lay more in mechanical details, if we assume you are dosing sufficiently on macros and micros, c02 is good (based on fish death and pearling), good wc habits. Could it be that the filter/flow is too low and plants are just not getting sufficient availability in all areas of the tank? If the filter is underpowered, this could also lead to some of these issues...........

Do you have large fish, high bio-load, or heavy feeder?

I would suggest the following for 5-7 days and let us know if any improvement:

1. Daily wc of 50%.
2. Dose EI after the wc at 2x the dosage for an 80 gallon. Micros about 4-6 hours later. Add excel at recommended dosage daily as well.
3. Light is at 6-8 hours duration.
4. Increase c02 just a bit every day and watch the fish for problems, look for more/better pearling.
5. Add another canister if possible of at least the same size OR LARGER than whatever you have.
6. Fluff plants at least daily with your fingers, and use a finer mesh net to catch the algae that is stirred up. This helps to keep the plants debris free.

Optional to do prior to these steps is a 2 or 3 day blackout.

I did a B/O then the steps I detailed above, plus a LOT of adjustment to get good c02, but can now grow anything (so far), no algae, clear water, etc. It took several months of trial and error, but I kept improving filtration, flow, current, c02 diffusion methods, EI dosing, etc and it all started to come together.

My 180 was WAY underpowered in almost every aspect except for light. As I got better/larger components and imroved things, healthtof tank and plants did as well. ALL areas of care must be optimal for good plant growth.

If you don't see improvement within 4 or 5 days, I would not know what to say to you, except to have someone you trust come over and review your setup.

The fact that some plants do well and not others, is insufficient quantities of carbon and ferts.

Hope this helps and best of luck!

[guy tillmans]

thanks gerryd.

I use a powerhead, i turned my filter outlet for a time at the p.helferi, no improvement. My co2 system is with external canister where the co2 is added en ph controlled. So i've increased twice the co2 untill the fish behavior changed en some species died. More co2 is impossible imo. The co2 system works well. No heavy fishload or debris. Vacuumcleaning bottom every wc.

[guy tillmans]

Thanks defdac

I will order some heedta-based fertilizer when i run out of profito. Do you suggest to add extra fe unless i use double dose fertilizer? And if , how much?

[Tom Barr]

Something seems strange here.

The tap is fine, use that inplace of KNO3 and use K2SO4 for K+.
PO4 is also fine.

I agree, particularly if the tap water is higher KH, to switch to other chelators.
DTPA is about the best general for most KH's.

Still, the algae and some plants doing well, like the Rotala and the others are not.........is telling.

A pH of 6.5 and a KH of 4 seems pretty rich in CO2.
This assumes that all the KH is bicarbonate, so the real KH might be less.

You should NEVER lose fish adjusting CO2 unless you are too impatient.
It should always be done slow and progressively with observations for algae, fish, and plant health. Small changes little by little while keeping the other parameters in good shape.

If you have some good flow, say 8-12x total tank volume per hour+ some surface movement, not enbough to break the water's surface, you should be easily able to add plenty of CO2 even for high light tanks.

So something else, an air leak, too much CO2 loss etc is occurring.
Some plants are doing well, others not, this means there's plant= plant competition occurring for a limiting resource, and it's CO2.

This is why some plants do very well, and others that are not as CO2 competitive do poorly and then those plants get algae. Are you losing leaves(they float and shed off plants)?

If so, it's a CO2 issue.
Less light means less intensity, the duration can still be 8-10 hours etc.
This places less demand on CO2 supplies.
Changing just the duration does not, just the total for the day cycle 24 hour period.

You might look at some other threads that are active, they both found leaks and other issues.

Hell, I wondered why one of my tanks was not doing so hot the last 2 days, CO2 gas tank had run out:p

Regards,
Tom Barr

[guy tillmans]

Thanks Tom

I use now RO , no tapwater. I use kh+ en GH+ to get a kh of 4 en gh of 4, ( kh+ en GH+ from velda and is used for ponds), Would you prefer using tapwater mixed with RO?? (untill my kh is 4)

[guy tillmans]

Further i've a hydor pump (150 g) is that enough, some say that koralia is the best, but if i put a , for example, 600 g pump in my tank , it'll look like an ocean or not?

[Dmaaaaax]

Wow 10x tank volume per hour for a filter? So for my 75g with about 60g of water, I want 600gph?

I currently have a Fluval 305 (260gph) and a Magnum (250gph). These are max numbers though and I thought I was on the high side since the Fluval was rated for a 70g tank.

Maybe an extra hang on the back filter for extra circulation? Hmmm...this could be the one that gets moved back and forth as needed to a quarentine tank. It would be cycled and ready to go.

[Tom Barr]

Thanks Tom

I use now RO , no tapwater. I use kh+ en GH+ to get a kh of 4 en gh of 4, ( kh+ en GH+ from velda and is used for ponds), Would you prefer using tapwater mixed with RO?? (untill my kh is 4)

Wow, then you are in good shape.
Keep using it if you do not mind.

Guy,
I have roughly 10X per hour in most of my tanks, it depends on how you distribute the flow also.

Incoming water
_____________
I
I
I_________________

Outgoing spray bar along the back wall

This will allow you to add lots of flow without moving plants around. the return water is rich in CO2, floats up through the leaves and towards the front of the tank.

You add a little extra flow for the surface(this can be done at the top of the return spray bar also, and not a bad idea for an anti siphon hole either).

This is about the best method for return CO2 enriched water.
If you use disc diffusers or other in tank CO2 diffusers, then in tank current is all you have.

Take a look at this thread also:
http://www.barrreport.com/general-plant-topics/5167-plant-problems-help-me-fix-situation.html

You might find some insight there.
I've had similar problems and fix them for myself and many others over the years.
I've had those same types of patterns in my tank, algae etc.

The plants and algae are pretty reliable indicators.
Particularly when your test appear to be correct.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[Dmaaaaax]

Is there a universal spay bar available that would fit on my Fluval 305 or Magnum? I was looking at these and it looks like "O" is a spay bar?

Aquarium Plumbing: Flexible Ball Socket Joint Tubing and Accessories (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+10090+4090&pcatid=4090)

[guy tillmans]

ok well i must do some aquatic plumbing, But if you have 10x tankvolume/ hour, lets say for me 3000 liters or 750 gallon, i've to add 2 more filter/canisters of 1200 liters/300 gallons, to achive that range.!!! (thats no option) So question is if we use powerheads, how can we "transform" them to spraybars? (adding more flow) How did you do that tom??

[VaughnH]

ok well i must do some aquatic plumbing, But if you have 10x tankvolume/ hour, lets say for me 3000 liters or 750 gallon, i've to add 2 more filter/canisters of 1200 liters/300 gallons, to achive that range.!!! (thats no option) So question is if we use powerheads, how can we "transform" them to spraybars? (adding more flow) How did you do that tom??

Spray bars are not the ideal way to get water circulation. Much better is a Koralia type powerhead, that uses a propeller to move a big volume of water at a not so big velocity - Water Pumps & Wavemakers: Hydor Koralia Water Circulation Pumps (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=15955). This is just one brand, but one that does work well. You can see that the biggest one does move over 3000 gallons per hour. For a really big tank, like you have, it would be much better to use two or three of the smaller Koralia powerheads and not just one of the biggest ones. You can set them up to give a circular flow around the tank which isn't so strong that it blows the plants down, nor so strong that the fish are uncomfortable. And there are areas of lesser current so fish can rest.

[Tom Barr]

I suggest you use the canister and the CO2 input into the spray bar and place it low along the rear of the tank. You can use a powerhead for the rest of the tank's circulation.

You can add another canister also, never hurts to have more filtration.

You can use the loc line or make a your own DIY spray bar.
You can easily make up for the flow and mixing with the powerhead and adjust it to place the flow where you want it. You want low pressure flow and high volume, not like most powerheads, more like the larger high volume marine reef powerheads.

These do not cost that much these days, some place a CO2 diffuser disc under these to blast CO2 mist around their tank and then an air stone on a timer at night for adding O2.

This mixes the CO2 fast and degasses it at night fast also.

You can also do this plus add CO2 through a reactor tube and add CO2 to the spray bar as well if you add another needle valve.

This way you can throttle between the different sources of CO2 diffusion.
Some find this dual method useful.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[guy tillmans]

Thanks guys for the information. i will order a korelia no2 , in a few weeks i will put some pictures of my tank here and lets hope it will be beter then now