Large tanks > 120 gals, c02, and EI - responses wanted [Archive] - Aquarium Plants

Gerryd

08-04-2008, 02:48 PM

Hi all,

Ceg4048 and I are having some PM discussions on larger tanks (> 120 us gals) and the much larger amounts of c02, EI, flow/current, etc that seems to be needed for our tanks to get optimal growth and no algae as compared to smaller volumes of water.

As an example, I need to dose about 3-4 times the 'normal' recommended EI dosing for a 180 gal tank. My drop checkers are also both yellow, but fish are okay (no gasping, surface activity, etc) and I am still increasing a bit at a time, with better plant growth with each increase.

So, I may be exceeding the RECOMMENDED 30-40 ppm c02 range as well..........

I also have > 2000 gph in water pumps ALONE (outside of the main filter/pump) to help with flow and current.

I would be interested in replies from those with tanks of this size OR LARGER that use pressurized c02 AND EI dosing with the following info, so I can summarize and see if we can glean any tips or general patterns that would help all when dealing with larger tanks.

Pattern recognition is a big part of my career, so am hoping to see something(s) that will help us all.

1. Tank size.
2. Method of c02 injection. External reactor, Mazzei, needle wheel, etc. Bubble rate if possible.
3. Type and duration of lighting. MH, T5, T12, etc. Wpg please.
4. EI dosing numbers and schedule. Daily, 3x a week, etc.
5. Type and size of filter(s). Canisters, hang on, etc.
6. Type and size of any extra water pumps or powerheads for additional flow/current.
7. Overflow boxes or not, as this affects c02 de-gassing.
8. Sump or not, as this affects c02 de-gassing.

I will publish any results that I can come up with.

At the very least, a table of tank sizes and ranges of EI and c02..

Feel free to PM (private message) me with any questions or replies.

Thanks in advance.

Tom Barr

08-04-2008, 04:01 PM

Well, you know my 180, I also have a 350 and 1600 to attend to, as well as a 120.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Gerryd

08-04-2008, 04:17 PM

Hi Tom,

Yes plenty of specs on the 180 lol. I have the links to the Behemoth (is that the 1600) and the 300 somewhere, so I can include your data :)

What EI are you dosing in the starfire? I never quite saw that specific tsp values?

Do you think this is a worthwhile endeavor?

Thanks,

JDowns

08-04-2008, 04:19 PM

Gerryd

08-04-2008, 04:40 PM

jdowns,

Marineland C360 with Mag 9.5 as a booster. Mag 9.5 with DIY water polisher/reactor. Mag 7 added circulation.
No operational overflow or sump

So do you have TWO Mag 9.5, one as a booster and one to drive the DIY polisher/reactor, or just the one that does both?

Mist and Reactor

What type/size of reactor and how do you mist?

Would love to see you post a thread in DIY on the polisher/reactor or a link if you have already done so.

All,

The more details the better. I have started a spreadsheet and will be filling in the details, so I can cut and paste most text. Be verbiose!

JDowns

08-04-2008, 05:06 PM

There is one 9.5 as a booster and another 9.5 to drive the polisher/reactor.

Polisher/Reactor (http://www.barrreport.com/articles/4049-diy-co2-diffuser-water-polisher.html)

Mist is a diffuser under the Mag 7, which spreads the mist around the tank. I'm considering a Mazzei inline with this pump and getting rid of the diffuser.

JDowns

08-04-2008, 05:11 PM

I originally wanted the reactor soley to get rid of the bubbles from the mist.

But.....I found as my CO2 improved I had mist coming from the canister filter starting a few hours after lights on like clockwork.

Funny story....I spent days trying to figure out where the air leak was coming from and why I was getting a mist of air coming from the canister outflow. Only to finally notice that it stopped after lights off and only started up once again a few hours after lights on. Gee I wonder where the air is coming from :P

Gerryd

08-04-2008, 05:22 PM

I'm considering a Mazzei inline with this pump and getting rid of the diffuser

I would get a 384 or 584 Mazzei and drive it with the Mag 7.....

Gee I wonder where the air is coming from

I've never been good at mysteries, and my brain is occupied elsewhere....

I'm guessing it was from the plants????

Mooner

08-05-2008, 04:51 AM

OK, going to step out on a limb here.

I don't necessarily believe this is a large tank only issue. I've also been above the recommended EI for a given tank volume. In fact higher than I actually care to admit. All though I did see incredible growth, and for no scientific reason, the levels where brought back down. Not sure how high I could have gone. Anyway I'm back to double EI, at standard EI things headed south fast. Currently this is stable with good growth at EIx2. Still.... fighting GSA on and off and this is the only algae I've had for a long time. Flow is high in tank as well as high filtration. Lighting is only what may be considered medium though. Concentrating more on CO2, but fish let me know when it's high. Drop checker to yellow.

Things brought to mind and have been written here(Barr Report) before...

Inert substrates can require more column ferts than rich substrates
The more bio load the more ferts, flow, and CO2 needed.
The build up of ferts in a non carbon tank for 8 months with no WC's at low light levels with fantastic results?!?
Light is a driver of photosynthesis, and medium lighting is doing well.

All per week in teaspoons and traces accordingly:

Lets see for a 20 gal tank: 1/8 and 1/32 KNO3 and PO4 respectively for a non carbon tank 6-8 months between WC(works very well on 2 tanks)

2-3x more for an Excel tank: 1/4-3/8 KNO3 and 1/16-3/32 PO4 20 gal tank

20-40 gal CO2 high light: 3/4 KNO3 and 3/16 PO4. This about 3x more than Excel and the reasoning behind one 1/3 EI for Excel tanks.

But the non-carbon tank at 6 months of no WC's has had 24 wks x 1/8 = 3 tsp KNO3 and 24 wks x 1/32 = 3/4 tsp PO4. I know this is a long time period, low light and very slow growth. But if build up was a problem wouldn't it manifest it self here? BTW this is a shrimp only tank. This tank rivals my Excel tanks

I also understand that EI is not a hard rule just a starting point. It just seems that on CO2 high(er) light with WC's that we are under where we could be on dosing. I'm not advocating less or more. Just throwing out ideas after a long learning curve and hands on experience.

One last thought, I think there may be some here with big tanks who may already be doing this but are being very quite about it and skirting the issue:rolleyes:

Or maybe I'm all wet:o

Gerryd

08-05-2008, 05:14 AM

Hi Chris,

No limb, I posted so as to get MORE points of view.......glad to have you join the discussion......Aren't we all a little wet??? lol

You bring up some excellent points.

I also agree that smaller tanks also have this issue, but since I have a large tank, those are the threads I focus on :) I just think it is not noticed because 1/8 to 1/4 of a tsp is not that much. When you go from 1.5 tsp to 4 or 5, you sit up and take notice!

I also think that there are many undercover EI overdosers, out there. I see way too many threads from folks with large tanks that dose EI and the assumption (well, mine at least) is that they are dosing at the EI recommendations for that tank, but that is not confirmed.

Glad to hear you admit that you are one of us! Acknowledgement is the first step to a cure lol

I brought this up, because even though I knew technically that I needed X ppm of this, and Y ppm of that, that I was nowhere near it, as I had so many algae and growth issues.

Yet, I knew that many others were doing well on these principles, so it had to be what I was doing.

I was (and am) simply amazed at the nutrient hog that my tank really is :eek:

I understand the EI are mins NOW, but didn't really get that earlier....:o

But if build up was a problem wouldn't it manifest it self here?

That's one of the myths we are fighting, that overdosing of nutrients is 'bad' in and of itself. I think folks here say 30 ppm of N, and think, that based on EI, I should dose X to get that level, not taking into account the things you mention earlier, such as substrate, bio-mass, etc.

The though of doubling or tripling that scares them. I think the more experienced folks do it quietly and just don't even think of it anymore, as things are going well for them, and they are not constantly changing things.

I would still like to gather this data, as it could prove to be useful in a chart form in the future.

Perhaps, I could include anyone with a tank < 120 gals that is dosing > 2-3X EI?

Tom Barr

08-05-2008, 09:06 PM

Mixing of water in a larger tank requires a lot more water flow than compared to a smaller tank.

100gph in a 10 gall mixes things very well all over, this is not so true with larger systems.

Another issue is really the pressure, high pressure outflow blast plants everywhere, low pressure but high flow does not, these same issues occur in reefs as well.

The more complex the 3D terrain is, the more trouble you will have getting flow
and water slows down due to friction and more distance= more friction.
It's not a linear function based on flow. How the flow is used also plays a larger role.
You'd have to escape physics to beat this issue.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Gerryd

08-05-2008, 11:32 PM

Mixing of water in a larger tank requires a lot more water flow than compared to a smaller tank.

Lol, I see that more every day!

100gph in a 10 gall mixes things very well all over, this is not so true with larger systems.

Yes, I used the normal 10x volume flow ratio for my 180 and it is nowhere need what I really needed.....

The more complex the 3D terrain is, the more trouble you will have getting flow

Amazing how often the scape components are right in the middle of my flow :)

I do not plan on competing with physics!

Thanks for the info and thoughts........

Now, if more folks would chime in with their specs (hint hint), I could consolidate all this great info!

JDowns

08-05-2008, 11:44 PM

So if I overdose I have to admit it?

There aren't twelve steps to this are there? :p

tinkerman

08-05-2008, 11:55 PM

I have a 125 gal tank. 4x 96 watt cf, 2x 36 watt cf, ans 2x 30watt reg flourecents(36 in bulb). I run a rena xp4, 2 200 gph powerheads, and 1 powerhead thats 300 gph. N 2 1/2 tsp, P 3/4 tsp, and K 4 tsp. I have been having some thread algea for a while and have yet to get rid of it, but upping co2 and lowering palntex seems to be helping. Drop checker is green working on more of a yellow color. some plants are doing better than others and some are very slow growing. Lights on for 9 hrs a day. Moderet planted and low fish load(2 bushy nose pleco's and 27 tetras). Co2 is sprayed through the 2 200 gph powerheads.

Gerryd

08-06-2008, 12:26 AM

So if I overdose I have to admit it?

There aren't twelve steps to this are there? :p

Yes you do, but no steps!

Admitting is important IMO for the following (long winded) reason. This certainly applies to me, and maybe others as well.

Here goes............

When I started reading the Barr Report, I was always looking at threads with SIMILAR setups to mine, ie, tank size, or filter, whatever to see what others were doing that I wasn't.

When I saw the pics of some of these tanks, they were beautiful, great growth, no algae, etc.

Wanting a tank like theirs, I tried copying what they did along with trying the other advice I got, and making more mistakes, and learning more. I made many assumptions, which is never a good thing.

Not one thread that I can remember ever said that they OVERDOSE EI. Or, I drove right past it and didn't recognize it for what it was :o

So, if noone stated it, they mustn't be doing it, is what I reasoned..........

So, when my tank has issues due to UNDER DOSING, which I did not realize was the issue, it never occured to me to increase dosing, as that would be DIFFERENT than what I ASSUMED others were doing.

Now that I understand EI more and the non-limiting approach, and that each tank is different, I do this less and less (assume and blindly copy).

I think I (and others) tend to look for certain words or phrases when researching, and we miss the CAUTION sign because we were looking for the STOP sign.

Hope this makes sense.

Tinkerman,

I have a 125 gal tank. 4x 96 watt cf, 2x 36 watt cf, ans 2x 30watt reg flourecents(36 in bulb).

That is a tremedous amount of light > 4 wpg. I am not surprised at hair algae.

Do you all of this for 9 hrs a day?

I would reduce some of this for sure, or at least not have them on all day if possible.

tinkerman

08-06-2008, 12:52 AM

I know this is suposed to be a lot of light, but when I upped light from only 4x 96 wattcf my wallichii growth improved and algea did not. I have been dealing with this algea issue for some time now and the light doesn't seem to be driving it but the balance of ferts. The lights were not always on for 9 hrs a day I had been running 2 x96 for 9 hrs and the reat at 6-7 hrs. I have played with the lighting to test with the algea. The biggest affect was removing all plants and removing as much, algea rescaping, and not adding plantex and it is a lot easier on me not spending 3 hrs a week removing algea where I now only takes 45 mins to remove. I still think it is ferts that this has not gone away. I was told on another forum that I should consider looking at too much mulm and not vacing enough this has been done more than before without sucking out half the sand in the tank and didn't seem to impact thread algea. I received a copy of my water report and found 1-2 ppm of iron so I toke out the dosing of plantex. that along with making sure my co2 stays at green to yellow has helped the most. I am one of those people that would be scared that adding too much co2 or ferts I might kill my fish. but bake to the topic cause I don't plan to take over the thread thread that you where asking about lager tanks and ferts. I have asked about my algea problem already and would feel better talking in the forum that was intended for it. Sorry don't mean to come off like I don't want your opionon or anything.

Gerryd

08-06-2008, 01:22 AM

Hi,

Your comments simply underscore what I said earlier:

a. That conventional wisdom, in this case >4 wpg is 'bad', does not always apply. Many folks go either way from CW and it works for them.

My whole thread is about benchmarks and recommendations versus real life examples......

am one of those people that would be scared that adding too much co2 or ferts I might kill my fish

I didn't mean to imply that light alone was the cause of the algae.

However, high light drives high demand for nutrients, including c02. Lessening the amount of light will reduce the need to introduce as much fertilization, which will allay your fears about overdosing. It is easier to lessen the light and keep demand less than to increase dosing beyond your comfort level.

I think your fears may be common, and one of the things I want to get out is that it will not cause massive deaths to increase your dosing to 2-4 X 'normal' EI or C02 levels.

Adjust slowly, sure, check and re-adjust, but the end level can be higher than 'normal' or common.

No worries.

tinkerman

08-06-2008, 01:45 AM

When i first started I killed many fish and have had the same fish in the tank for a while now. When I first set the tank up I tested and some ferts where kinda high so decreased ferts. The algea came from my previous tank as I used the same plants and added a few. The ferts have always been an issue for me and when knowing what to add more of and what to add less of. So I will keep an eye on this thread to see the outcome from this as it is always nice to compare to what others do and have luck with.

ccLansman

08-06-2008, 01:49 AM

bibbels

08-16-2008, 09:57 AM

1. Tank size.
2. Method of c02 injection. External reactor, Mazzei, needle wheel, etc. Bubble rate if possible.
3. Type and duration of lighting. MH, T5, T12, etc. Wpg please.
4. EI dosing numbers and schedule. Daily, 3x a week, etc.
5. Type and size of filter(s). Canisters, hang on, etc.
6. Type and size of any extra water pumps or powerheads for additional flow/current.
7. Overflow boxes or not, as this affects c02 de-gassing.
8. Sump or not, as this affects c02 de-gassing.

I have a 125 with a 55 sump that's been running about 3 months. Getting back into the hobby after a long hiatus. Only equipment in main tank is ADA knockoff drop checkers.
Sump has heater, double Hyrosponge filter with a Maxijet 400, and Magdrive 9.5 for return to tank. Return pump has 'T' on intake where output of CO2 reactor is plumbed.
I'm using an AM1000 reactor with venturi mod and it is driven by a GenX 1500 needle wheel pump. The reactor is actually mounted inside the sump (submerged) to save space and minimize plumbing. Bubble rate is fast, can't really count it. 10lb Co2 tank lasts about 3 weeks keeping DC yellowish/green. Sump is minimally sealed and main tank is open beneath a canopy. Tank has twin internal overflows (All Glass tank) with Durso type standpipes. Water enters sump by passing through 200 micron filter sock mounted on a pvc filter sock adapter that's submerged in the sump - wet/dry was not something I wanted or needed.
Lighting was a Sunpod with 3x150watt MH HQI. Tank is currently under blackout/excel treatment to help my battle with Cladophora and Spyrogyra. During this i have mounted a Tek T5HO retrofit into canopy 6x39watts. Lighting duration is 9 hours. I'm going from 3.6 WPG to ~1.9WPG. I left room in the canopy for two more 39watt T5's in the future if needed.
I dose EI wioth dry ferts at the top range based on my total water volume of 180gal. Macros 4x/week, micros 3x/week (plantex CSM+B). Drain sump for water changes Sat and Tues and add about a teaspoon of GH booster and add macros with each. WC is approx 30% twice weekly this way.

Gerryd

08-16-2008, 03:22 PM

Bubble rate is fast, can't really count it. 10lb Co2 tank lasts about 3 weeks keeping DC yellowish/green

This comment is another reason why I wanted this info and posted this thread.

I use a 10 lb tank in 2 weeks keeping the DC yellowish/green myself. I can find no leaks anywhere and I use a Mazzei.

I keep thinking I must have a leak or am doing something wrong, but it may be just that this is what my tank needs to keep my c02 ranges where they need to be.

Thanks for posting!

Mooner

08-16-2008, 04:37 PM

Here is how I recently found a leak in a name brand regulator.

Reverse your regulator for the lower pressure setting until the diaphragm has zero pressure against it. Leave the needle valve alone for this test. With full tank pressure showing on the high pressure gauge(and recorded) shut off the tank main valve. This is initiated at lights off and stays this way until lights on. This test is for the high pressure side of the regulator. If there is any decrease in pressure by morning there is a leak. If pressure holds then your fine. Re pressurize and go after it with soapy water. My leak was found between the tank stem and the regulator(factory assembled). I had to get a special sealant rated at 1200psi to fix.
For the longest time I thought it was the washer between the tank and stem. The loss was huge and I figured that I lost half the capacity of the tank through this leak.

Gerryd

08-16-2008, 05:19 PM

Chris,

Great idea! I will give this a shot tonight........

I kept assuming the same, the washer at the reg stem...........Checked with my regulator supplier and my c02 supplier to ensure I was using the correct washer and apparently I am.......

Since I only use 12" of airline tubing and a check valve and no bubble counter from the regulator to the Mazzei, I checked this tubing and valve under water, and no issues there.

I am now not sure whether to hope this could be my issue, as then I will know, or to hope no issue, and be sentenced to bi-monthly trips to the c02 store lol

Thanks again.

mrkookm

08-16-2008, 05:26 PM

Back when I used my 10lb on my 90gal, with CPR 150 overflow (http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~idProduct~CR1519~tab~1.html) & open 3ft sump (no sealing) my tank lasted for 2½ months with my Mazzei 384. 2~3 weeks is suspect and either Co2 diffusion is not efficient as you think or their is a leak.

I now use a 50lb Alu tank and currently going on 7 months for the same cost to refil the 10lb alu tank. You might want to consider going that route as well :)

Gerryd

08-16-2008, 05:47 PM

hey mrkookm.

2~3 weeks is suspect and either Co2 diffusion is not efficient as you think or their is a leak

I agree completely with this. I am now trying a larger pump on my Mazzei (584) to see if this helps....Am using a mag 500gph and going to a mag 9.5. I have a throttle valve, so cannot overload it....Will also try different placement of the Mazzei away from the pump......

I would LOVE a 20 or 50 lb tank, but my apt is pretty small and I can keep the 10 under the cabinet......

If I went to a 50 lb, does it get delivered lol. Not sure I could even get one that size in my car......

My biggest issue with this tank is c02 supply and diffusion. One day (and soon) I will get it resolved........

Thanks for the info.

JDowns

08-16-2008, 06:00 PM

I know i have seen this some where before but cant find it, what is the misting from? I also have the inline reactor and never see any misting. Is the misting good / bad?

The mist comes out of the canister's output. Where no CO2 is being injected. I can only assume that given the daily time frame when the mist occurs, that the O2 from the plants is being compressed as it passes through the canister/pumps/plumbing that it forms larger bubbles that appear as mist.

2 weeks ? I use a 20lb bottle and it lasts me just over 6 months. I just refilled Thursday. I started with that bottle January 7th. I would question whether you have a leak or you are injecting alot of CO2 that is being outgassed.

Another interesting topic would be how much of a surface ripple does each person use. I feel that people may just be over agitating their surface.

Gerryd

08-16-2008, 06:16 PM

2 weeks ? I use a 20lb bottle and it lasts me just over 6 months. I just refilled Thursday. I started with that bottle January 7th. I would question whether you have a leak or you are injecting alot of CO2 that is being outgassed.

Your comment only reinforces my belief that something is wrong with my setup.......You are not the first one to question this lol I have a large sump and twin overflows, so de-gassing is an issue. Sump is sealed as much as possible, and the overflow waterfall depth is 2.5". Very gentle fall, no real turbulence in there. I will try to get it to 1" or less.

EDIT: I just reduced the overflow fall to about .25" in each one. This should help a bit.

Another interesting topic would be how much of a surface ripple does each person use. I feel that people may just be over agitating their surface.

Not much of one for me. Only my HOT magnum disrupts the surface and that is a very gentle ripple. All of my loc-line is way under the water level, as well as all of my Koralias...

bibbels

08-17-2008, 08:03 AM

I wish I could fit a bottle larger than 10 lbs under my stand - oh well. There is a closet on the other side of the wall the tank is against, I might look into mounting a larger bottle (like 50 lbs) in there and running the line through the wall.
My initial 10lb bottle lasted a couple months. I'm now certain my CO2 concentrations were well below what I needed but I had difficulties getting my imitation ADA DC's at the time (took 6 weeks and 3 shipments to get me some unbroken with shipping time from Hong Kong).

I plan to seal my sump at some point down the road when I am fairly sure I won't make anymore hardware changes in there. I cut sheets of acrylic when I first set up the tank but have since changed pumps and most of the plumbing since then. I dont think I offgas too much CO2 from the overflows, the water only falls ~1/2" and the water enters the sump under the water surface (I have no wet/dry section).

Another interesting topic would be how much of a surface ripple does each person use. I feel that people may just be over agitating their surface.

I have minimal surface ripple/agitation. My sump returns are pointed downward to help with flow over HC and Glosso in the foreground.

I'm considering changing to Mazzei at some point as I feel I already need to upgrade my pump for incresed flow. Just tring to make the best of my reactor for now since it is already paid for:D It seems to work well after performing the venturi mod and adding the needle wheel impeller. It pulls pH down a full point in ~30-45 min and gives a very fine mist that's not detectable unless your face is to the glass. I like the mist for the added benefit of being able to see flow patterns in the tank from it.

Gerryd

08-17-2008, 02:55 PM

Hi Chris,

Reverse your regulator for the lower pressure setting until the diaphragm has zero pressure against it. Leave the needle valve alone for this test. With full tank pressure showing on the high pressure gauge(and recorded) shut off the tank main valve. This is initiated at lights off and stays this way until lights on. This test is for the high pressure side of the regulator. If there is any decrease in pressure by morning there is a leak. If pressure holds then your fine.

I tried the above steps last night and checked it just now after 10 hours with one hour to go before it is due to go on.

High pressure has remainded steady at the same reading as last night. Tank is full and was filled just the other day.

So based on this, it appears that the high side is okay.

bibbels,

My initial 10lb bottle lasted a couple months. I'm now certain my CO2 concentrations were well below what I needed

Yes, when I used an AM1000 reactor with venturi mod, my 10 lb also lasted several months. However, I could tell by the DC colors, PH, and other observations that I was not providing sufficient c02, compared to what I get out of the Mazzei currently.........

Waiting for my new bigger Mazzei pump and will see how that goes.............

I still find it suspicious that we go through so much c02 in such as short time........

But since I have no leaks (apparently that I can find), it has to be the way my Mazzei is setup/plumbed????

I will keep plugging away.

Thanks for all of the tips and info.

JJP2

08-17-2008, 07:33 PM

I am going to go from my 60 gallon to 120 or more. I am wondering if people are finding cannisters or sumps work better?

Mooner

08-17-2008, 08:17 PM

I tried the above steps last night and checked it just now after 10 hours with one hour to go before it is due to go on.

High pressure has remainded steady at the same reading as last night. Tank is full and was filled just the other day.

So based on this, it appears that the high side is okay.

Sounds good Gerry,

when mine was leaking it was losing 200-300 psi on the high side in 9-10 hrs.

JDowns

09-03-2008, 11:52 PM

150 US Gallons
Mist and Reactor / DC to yellow
HO T5 240 wpg for 8hrs
Daily dosing normal EI with double the P
Marineland C360 with Mag 9.5 as a booster. Mag 9.5 with DIY water polisher/reactor. Mag 7 added circulation.
No operational overflow or sump

Not sure on bps. I'll have to try hard to count and add up both bubble counters to try and get a good number

Tank setup has changed.

]
150 US Gallons
Mist and Reactor / DC to yellow
Mag 5 distributing mist single output
NuClear 533 and 547 fed by dual Mag 9.5 in parallel to dual outputs.
5 individual locline ends directionalizing flow
Overflow box at .25" drop
HO T5 240 wpg for 8hrs
Daily dosing normal EI

Now that I have much better circulation/filtration throughout the entire tank. Going back to straight EI and see if the improved circulation makes up for the need for increased phosphate dosage. I have a sneaky suspicion that a lack of PO4 was not the issue, rather inadequate circulation/filtration.

Gerryd

09-04-2008, 12:16 AM

Hey Jdowns,

Got pics? Need to post them. A pic is worth a thousand words, or so I have heard.....

Old

1. 150 US Gallons
New

1. 150 US Gallons

So, this did NOT change? lol

4. NuClear 533 and 547 fed by dual Mag 9.5 in parallel to dual outputs.

So one mag 9.5 for each NC? On separate lines but then merge later?

5. 5 individual locline ends directionalizing flow

So, I'm thinking 2 each for each of the NC lines and one for the mag 5 c02 mist output if not merged as I thought above?

Old

6. No operational overflow or sump
New

6. Overflow box at .25" drop

So did you add a sump, or just surface skimming with the overflow that is feeding into the canister loop? Details please.

Did you remove the C360?

Are you happy overall with the changes?

How do you like the NC'S?

Is your water clarity improved, overall cleanliness?

Good luck with all of your changes.

JDowns

09-04-2008, 03:22 AM

Hey Jdowns,

Got pics? Need to post them. A pic is worth a thousand words, or so I have heard.....

Old

New

So, this did NOT change? lol

So one mag 9.5 for each NC? On separate lines but then merge later?

So, I'm thinking 2 each for each of the NC lines and one for the mag 5 c02 mist output if not merged as I thought above?

Old

New

So did you add a sump, or just surface skimming with the overflow that is feeding into the canister loop? Details please.

Did you remove the C360?

Are you happy overall with the changes?

How do you like the NC'S?

Is your water clarity improved, overall cleanliness?

Good luck with all of your changes.

I'll get some pics up this week. Camera is on loan right now.

Old photo though will help explain.

http://members.cox.net/just_me/top.jpg

The overflow is now outfitted with a 1" thinwall pipe for inputs about 16" tall. With (4) 1/2" holes in the overflow (overflow regulators) open I get 1/4" to 1/3" drop for surface skimming.

Below that a 1" ballvalve, then a "T" for dual ouptuts. 1" hose connects to each Mag 9.5. Each Mag 9.5 feeds to a 1" Manifold Wye. Then 1" line to the 533. A 1" union connects the 533 to the 547. Then a 1" line connects to another Wye. From there its (2) 3/4" lines with ball valves to the two closest bulkheads in the above picture to the overflow. Locline fittings with wyes to give 4 seperate fittings for flow directed around the tank. The startup pressure for the NuClears is now 5 psi with the added 547 and new piping.

Farthest top bulkheads fead the Mag 5 input/output. This is setup with a 100 micron prefilter to catch Co2 from a diffuser and spread the mist. I will probably add a Mazzei setup here. Although I'm happy with everything right now so its tough to keep changing things. I had to remove the Mag 7, since it was too much flow now in the tank.

The C360 is collecting dust as of now. I can't imagine not purchasing this type of setup again. Much more versatile and very cost effective.

I love the NC's. As far as overall cleanliness, I can't speak of as of yet. I do like the fact that I tripled my biological and have a much more effecient mechanical filtration now though.

CO2: Half the CO2 is fed to the misting portion and half to the NC's for dissolving. Plants responded very well today to the changes. But overall it will take more time to view the plants and make an overall opinion how much better this is for the plants. But as far as flow/filtration/circulation. The old setup pales in comparision.

Gerryd

09-04-2008, 03:57 AM

Hey,

Farthest top bulkheads fead the Mag 5 input/output. This is setup with a 100 micron prefilter to catch Co2 from a diffuser and spread the mist. I will probably add a Mazzei setup here.

I had a mag 500 driving my 584 3/4 mazzei from 10" away and feeding right back into the sump pump and found this to not be ideal. The pump does not produce enough pressure to drive the venturi optimally.

I would switch the 5 with the 7 and that will help a bit if you add a venturi. Then since this is a high flow/low pressure pump, install a throttle valve AFTER the mazzei so you can create some pressure as the valve is closed, so the venturi performs better. That way the flow will be used up by the venturi and not be too much for the tank.

Glad to hear it is working out well.

Gilles

09-16-2008, 08:59 AM

JDowns

09-17-2008, 02:51 AM

Now that I have much better circulation/filtration throughout the entire tank. Going back to straight EI and see if the improved circulation makes up for the need for increased phosphate dosage. I have a sneaky suspicion that a lack of PO4 was not the issue, rather inadequate circulation/filtration.

With about a week left on the stock solution, its safe to say that the added PO4 is no longer needed. GSA is non existent, as with any other pests. The improved circulation/filtration definatly was the proper fix rather then the excess PO4 IMI.

There are also marked areas of improvement in plant growth. But I'll let that go another 20 day cycle before drawing any premature conclusions.

JDowns

10-22-2008, 11:49 PM

There are also marked areas of improvement in plant growth. But I'll let that go another 20 day cycle before drawing any premature conclusions.

The most notable improvements are in areas that I once thought as "normal".

I no longer have the quick decaying and loss of leaves lower on stem plants. Plant health is much impoved at the lower portions of stems.

Ludwiga Cuba grows smaller in diameter, with more off-shoots now. Could this be to less PO4? I'd have to do another 20 day run at higher levels to determine that.

adechazal

11-07-2008, 05:58 PM

Hi Gerry and "large tank" friends. I'll admit I'm a large tank lurker on this site. I've been following Gerry's posts for over a year now trying to see what he does.

My stats...
Tank: Oceanic 180 w/dual overflows
Sump: AGA model 4
Pump: Poseidon PS4 pumping about a 6 foot head
Reactor: AM1000 driven by powerhead from sump, 20lb CO2 @ about 2-3 BPS.
Lighting: 4x80watt 60" T5HO
Substrate: Eco Complete
Fertilization: Well I think I'm following EI but I'm confused about the amounts. I've been dosing 2 teaspoons N and 3/4 teaspoon PO 3x per week with 15ml of trace (TMG) 3x a week on alternating days from the macros.

Yes I have algae issues, they come and go. GDA one month, clean the next, BBA currently. I suspect my flow is woefully insufficient, the Poseidon pump doesn't push much at a 6 foot head but it is silent running which is why i picked it. So if anyone can recommend a good pump for a 180 gallon aquarium that is quiet enough for a livingroom wall aquarium please let me know. I tried the Quietone in sump pumps and they were completely unacceptable due to low frequency hum.

Aaron

rthomas

02-02-2009, 05:27 AM

Gerry, this is my current setup
- 180g tank
- 2 units of Eheim 2228 canister filter. Output is 270 gph each
- Pressurized CO2 with AM1000 reactor
- CO2 bps, hermzzz ... probably more than 5 or 6
- 2 x 150W MH (1.6 wpg)
- SunSun wavemaker. This looks almost like Koralia 4. Output is 1320 gph. No complaints. Very nice.

Now when you guys say that your tank is XYZ gallons, are you referring to the amount of water that is in the tank now OR do you mean the maximum amount of water that the tank can hold?

For example, I have to use about 9 to 10 bags of aqual soil. That is about 90 litres. My setup is Iwagumi and the volume of rocks is more or less the same volume of the AS. Total of about 200 Litres. And that is about 50g.

As such the amount of water in my tank is actually 180 less 50 = 130g.

So do I use EI for 130g tank or should I go for 180g tank ?

laka

02-03-2009, 04:51 AM

GerryD

-I have 180g heavily planted tank.
-Pressurised 10kg (20lb) CO2 mist one outlet in Eheim pump intake (2000l/hr)
5-6BPS? Drop checker green. Bottle lasts 6 months.
-8 hrs light total comprising 1.4wpg 4hrs and 2.8wpg for 4 hrs using T-5's T-8's and 2*150W MH's
-EI SOLUTION dosing daily+Seachem Flourish/Flourish Iron 3/week, 50% weekly water changes
-filters are 2 powerheads attached to sponge for mechanical filtration. No need for
biological filtration in my system-very heavy plant growth ie. a jungle.
-one Koralia pump at either end for additional water agitation
-no overflows/sumps.

I also have 4inches of laterite as base with peat moss and gravel on top.

Plant growth great. Prune one full bucket/week.

Algae. Some BBA on anubias and Vals. Increasing CO2 slowly and dosing Excel as recommended by manufacturer has almost eliminated it.
Some GSA on glass as well.

LAKA