Paying for premium forums......is the BarrReport any different?

[Tom Barr]

Apparently several forum owners seem to think that the BarrReport's asking for money is not right and that folks can getb such information anywhere for free, yet they have premium, sponser, vendor, supporting membership where folks pay, so they can add pictures and/or increase their picture sizes they can load into threads, increased mail box sized for PM's, and they also banners all over.

I have no issue with them doing so, but it's not any different than a subscription pay forum either.

The BarrReport has never been so much about a forum to replace the other forums, rather, it's more a discussion and help area for other aspects not covered in the monthly articles.

The monthly articles are the core and give the readership insight into each major area of plant health, husbandtry that you will not find elsewhere.

I also spend more time with folks here trying to help them solve any issue they might have.

But consider those premium memberships on other forms and the knee jerk reaction folks had when I offered this for $, it's not much really. Less than some of those services, less than many society memberships.
An Aqua Journal runs about 10-12$ for one issue.

I've given to several forums freely, namely because I like them and want to see them continue such as Aquaria Central as well as others.

I synthesize both science and hobbyists related materials together to find what is really known. Sometimes there are larger gaps in the science and the hobby, that is research and science for you, and one answer leads to 5 more questions, but therein lies the passion for it.

This next article on Iron and Manganese will be interesting for folks as well as things like Zinc, Copper and other trace elements.
Some basic ideas I return to but focus much more on certain nutrients.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Bill]

Hi Tom,

You fee is very low and you do an excellent job.

Some of the items discussed here could also be discussed on others forums but you do provide a lot of material that isn't available on any of the other forums.

I have learned a lot from many people on the different forums which I am very grateful for but I would have to say that I have learned more about aquatic gardening from the information provided by you thru articles and post than anyone else.

Since I have learned so much from you I respect you thoughts and opinions on aquatic gardening and I enjoy reading your comments on each thread.

Thanks for providing this web site,
Bill

[freemann]

Apparently several forum owners seem to think that the Barr Report’s asking for money is not right and that folks can get such information anywhere for free.
Well Tom it seems that you have some low popularity around as well :)
To be sincere I prefer this pay 10 dollars and be done with it, than this premium memberships and all this advertisements all over the forums. I really hate this ads and sponsors coming up everywhere within the forums-postings (gives the sites a feeling of "decadence" for me) and there we really talk lots of money prolly not justified as a means to pay just the monthly charge of the hosting, which it can be at the most 200 - 300 dollars a month. Also I have a feeling that the quality of the forums has deteriorated (maybe it is me knowing more this days and finding the posts uninteresting) but still statistically the posts of real value have decreased (and I visit most of the forums) maybe people have gotten bored of getting half or cryptic answers have stopped posting (I still remember legendary posts that went for ever on various subjects in the past), also the fact that there are no definitive answers given from the "gurus" but only show of on lots of the forums really frustrates me. I mean do they know or they don't?
I also like the fact that paying creates a kind of "obligation" to help people like you said Tom. The reports make a difference as well here but I still feel knowledge should be accessible to all.
Keep up with your postings in the public forums it tells me that it worths paying to support you here in this private forum.
I would appreciate more posts from us members in this forum as well, some days postings are really low but we are few so maybe that explains it.
All I know is that we need to be humble, opened minded eager to learn and speak of our weaknesses and successes so we and others can learn from them in this hobby.

[quenton]

I have no problem with paying -- the few dollors (even converted to CDN) is well worth it. I subscribe to 2 forums (never mind which other one) -- it has a higher posting rate so I like that, but I really like the quality on barr. I too would prefer to see more posting, not sure why its low -- but if I see email from both my subscriptions, I know I want to go to this one first.

So just leave things as they are -- its not an issue -- at least not with me.

[jerime]

Well, I've seen this coming a long time ago - it's the human nature at it's worst.

Unfortunately whenever someone poses some competition to others, reactions like that, coupled with personal attacks are at hand.

I've seen some of this attacks on you when you decided to open thebarrreport, I've heard some non public stuff and as I said, it was quite expected.

When I started planted tanks few years ago, I read almost anything readable. You poped up real fast. I found you as the authority in this field and very soon there came only 2 guys I made myself read : you, and I must say roger miller from AB.

I followed your way. experimented as you did (as much as I could) and changed my views accordingly. Since I was 1 of few, soon many in my country changed their's.

You are really one of a kind, you stand out immediately and you influence others. Be proud of yourself and what you've achieved so far.

Don't let anyone discourage you. Keep up the exceptional work you do here, in your articles and other forums.

The price you take is nothing compared to what you give in return. Those who feel it's not, it's their loss, not yours.

Ignore and move forward.

Regards.

Eyal.

[Paul S]

Tom:

The fee that is being charged is very minimal when compared to the value of information that can be obtained from this site.
To put it into another perspective, if one were to take the monthly Barr reports and put them into book form, how much would that cost to buy?
Consultant fees in Toms field of expertise would probably cost US$50/hr. or so.
To get that kind of help for pennies in this forum is one of the best investments I have ever made.

Keep up the good work Tom and if you ever get your book started :) put me on the order list.

Paul S.

[Tom Barr]

Thanks for the input and support.

I'm ranting a bit here.

I just found it hypocritictal and ironic as I've had long discussions/rants with some Forum owners and their moderators about my personal ethics of charging for membership and access, yet they have public and private premium sections in their web sites.

Of course their own ethics are not questioned by the very folks like they judged me. If you hold some one to some standard, better sure as hold yourself to that same standand. I really try to do this myself.

I too believe strongly in freedom of information for the hobby.
But any author that sells a mag or a book can be labeled a "profiteer" under these folk's defintion.

A good in depth article/book on aquatic plants that brings new information to the table is very rare.

Some are nice and fuzzy, but often lack much substance and often end supporting more myths than resolving anything.

Then I spend time explaining that siestas, or heating cables etc are baloney......... and I do tend to play both sides of fence when arguing something and looking for support for one side or the other.

They offer little support for such equipment or methods.
I suppose that is okay if they actually work, but most of the time, they don't. and they do not support odf expalin it much often when something does work or not any better than something hair brained such as cables.
If they do, I'll say so and critique them.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[colonel]

I don't see where anyone else has the room to sit back and Judge you, or the services you provide for such a small fee. I feel that the forums are just an added bonus, what I am really paying for is the monthly articles, much like you would for any other suscription for a magazine. But where are you ever going to find such in depth articles on topics that No one else is willing to research and cover? your not, which is exactly why it is so worth it..... I dont see what the deal is, if others out there have a problem with it I personally think they should just keep it to them self and go out and offer the information that can be gained from this site for free, doing the research, editing it and posting it for all to view at no cost.

Suddenly they may see the enormous amount of work that goes into doing that and thier views may be changed about charging such a small fee each year for those who would like to have access to such information.... Keep up the good work Tom!

~Matt

[VaughnH]

I mortgaged my house and joined up here.......ok, so I didn't need the mortgage....but I joined here largely to get to read about CO2 mist, EI, CO2 reactors, and all of the other goodies I felt sure would follow. Most of the monthly articles are far more than I want to know, but at least I could read them if I wanted to. This forum is very good for discussing problems, reading others experience and trying to avoid the problems others report. I am perfectly content to have joined.

The other forums I read and comment on are primarily of interest because I can buy good plants cheaply there, or sell off my prunings instead of dumping them in the garbage. But, I do learn some things there, and enjoy trying to help others where my limited knowledge lets me. I pay for premium membership at one of the forums just to get the larger mailbox for when I buy or sell plants. That's pretty cheap too.

We are fortunate in this hobby to have the great forums we have, plus having Tom do our science for us, plus getting advice from him as we need it. Most of us would be plastic plants and algae growers without the contributions he makes.

[aquabillpers]

I think that there is more here about culturing aquatic plants, and fewer political debates (although a few of those can add some spice and educate) and less long-running discussions on the care and feeding of various needle valves and ballast arrangements.

I note that Tom continues to post to other sites, sharing his knowledge as he always has.

In the final analysis, the free market will make the decision about whether "free" or "pay" or both will survive. I bet on "both".

Bill

[brad]

As of today, you have 1,712 people who didn't think it was too much.

I have a gold membership at TPT which costs 15$. I'm still waiting to see if APC will offer other options but probably be Paypaling them 15$ as well. So far, you're the cheapest board I visit.

I found myself visiting the other boards and posting questions for you anyhow, and I figured that you took quite a few hours to answer me over the course of a few months. I also was able to get on top of my algae problem because of the advise I got here which saved me more 13$ worth of plants. I could have gotten the same advise for free. yes! But I also would have had to filter out the poor advise from people who know nothing. This way, I went straight to the source. I got free GH boster from Greg through this site, got some Nerite snails from you through this site.........

That said, I do feel it warrants that extra effort to make sure a question never falls too far down the page without getting answer. I would like to see this board have more discussions instead of the "ask Tom" format it has taken, but I think that will come with time. So far, especially given that it's all new here, I'm happy with the 13$ I spent.

Thanks to both you and Greg for the work that goes into running this site.

[Tom Barr]

As of today, you have 1,712 people who didn't think it was too much.


Well, member vs subscribers are quite different, that number is much lower than 1712 folks. I'd be doing pretty good if that were the case.


I have a gold membership at TPT which costs 15$. I'm still waiting to see if APC will offer other options but probably be Paypaling them 15$ as well. So far, you're the cheapest board I visit.


I'm the cheapest? haha
I'm not really a board though, that was never the intent, that was namely the readership and a user friendly format that folks where already use to.


I found myself visiting the other boards and posting questions for you anyhow, and I figured that you took quite a few hours to answer me over the course of a few months. I also was able to get on top of my algae problem because of the advise I got here which saved me more 13$ worth of plants. I could have gotten the same advise for free. yes! But I also would have had to filter out the poor advise from people who know nothing. This way, I went straight to the source. I got free GH boster from Greg through this site, got some Nerite snails from you through this site.........

That said, I do feel it warrants that extra effort to make sure a question never falls too far down the page without getting answer. I would like to see this board have more discussions instead of the "ask Tom" format it has taken, but I think that will come with time. So far, especially given that it's all new here, I'm happy with the 13$ I spent.

Thanks to both you and Greg for the work that goes into running this site.

Well the board here is a lot of ask Tom stuff.
But the focus are the monthly reports.
That was the goal here.

But if folks want to discuss more, I welcome that too.

I can also play devil's advocate if it's something I already agree with just make it nice and messy:)

I'll jump the fence and often do to see what types of responses might come out of it.

I sometimes say things that are purposely contentious to lull folks out of lurk mode, but a good discussion is a rarity these days, so I've gone to writing articles instead. From those, others will distill down further, but have a good encompassing basis for that for referral if they need it.

The distillation on this site's forums is a good way to get discussions going, there's a lot in each month's article for discussing a topic.

I raise a number of questions and can ask some at the end of each month after folks have had a chance to look the artilce of the month over.

Hummm..........maybe that might be a good idea, I know what conclusions and ideas might come from them, so I'll just guide and not offer my notions/concluding remarks till the very end based of the thread's consensus.

This is sort of the Socratic method.
Are folks ready for that or want that?

I can do it easily.

Whether anyone wants to take the bait and put it out there, is another matter. The questions would be designed to make you think and discuss, not for me to come in and answer.

I can make exam type questions, say 10, if folks really want to have that type of format.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[shake]

I don't mide paying for things that will help in this hobby. I have spent hundreds of dollars on books, so a small fee (which I think was $18.50 Aussie dollars converted) in my mind is no different to paying for a book. I get as much information, if not more, from the BarrReport than most books.Tom has set up this site because of his love of aquatic plants and his desire to help people in this hobby. I have no problems paying for this privilege.

Tom, keep up the good work.

Zack :)

[detlef]

Tom,

please no questions at the end of your reports. I myself had lots of questions after reading but did not ask for several reasons (due to lack of time etc.). The summary allows for a quick check if one does not want to reread the whole thing after some time. Also, it serves for a better understanding ...... so, please stick the main statements together like you did in the past.

As we all know one answer poses lots of new questions and I will bother you for sure ... if you don't mind.

You are doing an incredible amount of work for the hobbyist. Thank you so much.

Regards,
Detlef

[Tom Barr]

Well, you guys are the best advertizing that there is, so get out and tell folks if they want to learn more, this is a good way to do so.
It really is not a bad deal $$ wise and helps the hobby much like support of other forums.

I think many place barriers up and have mind sets that cause them to not want to subscribe due what they claim to be the cost, yet then they pay for other services on forums.

So tell them that the they are asking for $ from many forums that are helpful to the hobby, why not get some real meat on the table and do the same here with some deeper articles on the specific topics.

We already have 10-12 pages per article x 15 months=> 150-180 pages worth of meaty plant info. After a couple of years=> 24 months x 10-12 pages = nearly 260-300 pages.

So tell folks about it, what type of resource it is and ideas it provides.

Thanks,
Tom Barr

[rrguymon]

I subscribed for the monthly reports. I think they are worth the price of admission alone. Getting a direct response or recommendation from someone with your or GW's experience and success in the hobby is a great bonus to the articles.

I am also a member of the the planted tank. I like it also. Their forums move faster and I really enjoy browsing the photo album and swap and shop section. I buy most of my plants there now from other members. Rex is hoot a too. You come by often also 8).

Both are great and I enjoy them and think they are well worth the few dollars I spent.

Rick

[reiverix]

So it costs around 2.74 cents per day for the Barr Report. Somehow I think I'll cope. Even this mean and grumpy old Scot thinks he's getting a bargain :D

Seriously though. I first got into this planted thing without a clue except I'd barely heard of anacharis. What is really cool is when people see my planted tank next to my coral reef and they give all the attention to the plants.

[Tom Barr]

Reiverix, I am Scottish as well, There's even a Barr's Tavern dating back to the 1730 in Edinburgh. My grandfather was a Presbyterian minister and John Knox, the Edinburgh churchman, played his part in the reformation in Scotland, which adopted a Presbyterian tradition losing the link between church and state (which is retained in England). St Patrick was born in Scotland also and went to Ireland in 432. John Muir, Adam Smith is also from Scotland and a bunch of other onerous folks.

But back to the issue here.

I have some say that "why should they pay for for information such as the BarrReport....", yet, they ask for $$ on the forums for support as well. I can get free forum info as well.

Part of the forums here are free, just like many forums.
So that is no different.

But what are folks getting for the premium memberships on these so called free forums? More photo space, more PM space, no monthly Report?

What happened to the advertizers paying the bills etc?
I have none of those(other than you, the subscriber).

I have no issue like many of you in supporting the hobby, but I don't like folks judging me when they cannot judge thy self by thy own standard.

No one gets into this hobby to get rich haha, certainly neither Greg nor myself. We can make considerable $$$ with other endeavors, this is for fun and for it to pay for itself for the most part.

I may do a competion coming up here in about 1 year.
But it'll be an aquatic plant science competition with prizes etc.
Show off your brains instead of your aquascape.
I've toyed with the Marine plant competition as well.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Naja002]

Hi Tom,

Just Subscribed....

Hypocrites is the word: They collect at the Backdoor(advertising) and the Front (Supporting Membership et al). Whether they collect at the Front or Not---they are still collecting at the Backdoor. So, they have no place to say anything to anybody about getting paid.

Your Up-Front fee is just that: Up-Front. Websites cost Money. Period. The amount of Your Time alone that has to be put into this website--justifies the subscription fee.
I would hazard the guess that You have already forgotten more about Aquariums and Aquatic Plants than most people will ever know--again, that shared knowledge is worth more than the subscription.

I'm willing to bet that the other forum administrator's never bother to complain about You sharing Your wealth of knowledge on Their Forums. That just Helps them out....

Yep. Hypocrite is the word....

Keep up the Good Work!

I've always been Impressed by the simple fact that Your site requires a subscription, but You are still out there on other forums freely giving away help and advice.....

[Tom Barr]

Hypocrites is the word: They collect at the Backdoor(advertising) and the Front (Supporting Membership et al). Whether they collect at the Front or Not---they are still collecting at the Backdoor. So, they have no place to say anything to anybody about getting paid.

Well, they most certainly did on 3 boards.
And all 3 use both methods.

I decided to be different, well, because I am different.
But more than that, I wanted it with a magazine type model but without all the hash and advertizing. That makes it harder for both Greg and myself to deal with and less time we would have for content(which is my goal and will help the hobbyists). I just do not have time to play with that angle to begin with. Greg helps me do the business and web side. He is as much as this as I am. Some folks like the advertizing and look at that(like in FAMA and TFH ad's for Big Al's etc). I don't.

You can find plenty of ads for free if you wanna be like that:)

I'll give the public some general advice, not much really if it relates to a report I've done/doing etc.

You'll note, we do have a public forum section as well.
Some things are read only.

There's a lot more I know than what I tell them on the public boards.

You can see that once you read one or two monthly articles,
and that's only maybe 30-50%. A lot of it just cannot make it into the month's timetable of article production. Folks there, I may ignore at some point. Not here. Till you get it right if it takes 5 years.

Greg and I will be doing a lifetime membership fee shortly.
Then you'll have access to the all the Reports from here on, past present and future.

If the future, I'll produce a book with about 70% of what I know for each chapter, so it will bring even more to the table and drawn upon the relationships built here to explain the way Macrophytes grow and their environment.

It'll likely be 500-600 pages and contain 30 chapters or so.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Steve Hampton]

Tom, I'm just thankful to have you as my major resource provider and the information I gain from the newsletters is worth many times the amount I pay per year...in fact I never hesitated to renew my subscription this year because I see it as such a great value. People complain when they are either ill informed, jealous, or just plain dense. Frankly I don't take advantage of the forums here much due to the heavy load of other forum obligations I have but I think your providing of the forums and making yourself so available is remarkable. Considering your stature and place in the hobby you are certainly unique. I can't name another renown expert that makes themselves as approachable as you do. I've always considered your attitude and unselflessness to be equal to your prodigious knowedgebase...that my friend is saying a lot. Any success I have with my planted tanks is largely due to your sharing of knowledge and any help I am able to provide to others is a reflection of the way you give so freely.

Thanks for the help and thank you for making such a great resource as the newsletter so affordable. Ignore the goons.

[reiverix]

I've never been to Barr's Tavern Tom, but did sometimes go to the Sheeps Heid (13th century). I come from the Borders area not too far from Edinburgh. Been in the States for 6 years now.

Anyways, I guess my problem is when other forums start throwing grenades at individuals. Makes it more like a media circus.

[handimn1]

Your site is just fine for me Tom, keep up the good work!

[Jay]

Steve Hampton wrote...


Tom, I'm just thankful to have you as my major resource provider and the information I gain from the newsletters is worth many times the amount I pay per year...in fact I never hesitated to renew my subscription this year because I see it as such a great value. People complain when they are either ill informed, jealous, or just plain dense

He really sums up my feelings also. In fact I renewed a month early so a not to miss any articles or newsletters. Took a bit for Greg and I to get it straight. :)

Jay

[Tom Barr]

The support for this is based much more on the Magazine approach.
Not a discussion forum.

I think that's the disconnect.
Do folks expect a magazine to to be free?

There are no monthly plant magazines I am aware of. Most are quarterly, few offer refereneces or any in depth detail.

I am planning on writing more for some magazines such as TFH and Aqua planta/Reef Art, more general stuff. Topics that get repeated often on boards rather thann BarrReport level discussions.

The goal is to reach a larger group of folks that are interested and it is advertising for the BarrReport as well indirectly. The kind I prefer, advertising based on good in depth information rather than pretty eye candy.
Nothing wrong with both eye candy and good info, then you have a good combo.

I think one thing I want to write coming up is coming to terms with the various methods used and why each works and the evaluation of the trades based on the hobbyists goal/s.

This is important as it addresses many newbies frustrations when getting infomation about how to grow plants.

The worst issue is the the gap between non CO2/carbon enrichment and CO2 gas use. Advice really is divided when someone ask for advice.

No one has addressed why algae does not grow in each method, those that have speculated have had a poor understanding about algae.
The observations also do not match their hypothesis well, if at all.
Nearly every single writer/author expert has had some statement claiming excess PO4, NO3, Fe causes algae. Yet my observations and those of others clearly show this cannot be true.

I look at the observations first, then try to build a model.
If I go back and test the hypothesis, it must match the observations.
If not, toss out the model and build a new one that better explains and matched the observations. See if it's predictable.

Understanding to causative mechansims for algae can teach us much more about aquatic plants and where to look when dealing with a horticultural strategy.

Many read some conclusion and assume that this conclusion must be correct.
Then they run around looking for support for this conclusion in the research, or worse, on the boards.

I've seen many folks assume since there are some folks having trouble and even if a few are not, that there must be something to PO4, of Fe. That is backwards thinking. How can two folks have the same conditions with PO4 and one not have algae while the other does? It must be something other than high PO4 or Fe. Something else is confounding their observation.
Poor test kits compound this issue even further. But EI is useful for knowing you defintiely have PO4 because you justed added some! You know how much regardless of the test kit reading.
That allows you to rule out the test kit issue or the deficiency issue.

If they have algae, great! I know how to induce many species of algae and that will tell me most everything I need to know to analyze where they went wrong and to stop blaming the innocent PO4 or Fe.

Algae are great bioindicators of health.

It also provides much more wiggle room in a routine without having to deal with algae and provides more delivery options for fertilizers and maintenance.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[dschmeh]

I dont mind paying I subscribed and feel the the info is worth the cost. yes i can find info for free but by subscribing i feel im getting personal support from a plant expert (tom) if needed, It seems tom answers most post personally and if i get in a jam i can always ask tom this to me is worth the minimal cost . I belong to other forums and it sometimes seems people who dont know what they are talking about are trying to reply to you and are sometimes misleading. This is NOT the case here.

[Tom Barr]

I think most folks mean well that give advice, seldom have I ever seen otherwise.

Getting to understand the complexity sometimes is tough. And when I was getting started and had a limited knowledge and experience base, I too had similar questions and made a few mistakes, but I generally did not make many of the same ones and was always pretty careful about advice.

I've put my foot in my mouth a few times, but you admit you are human and move on. When folks wound up, then it's an ego base thing. Intetrmediate folks often get into this vein.

They know enough to argue, but not enough to put it together.
Be patient with them, they will mellow and learn soon enough in due time.

Main thing here is to get folks to that level sooner and easier.
It's good to learn through experience, as long as it's not your own.

By helping all of you learn and get a very in depth background to these questions and various methods, you all will have a much better background and ability to help others and support the knowledge.

This eventually will lead to a stronger understanding and consensus among plant horticulture methods/advice and provide very high success rates for the future newbies.

I think everyone that is passionate about plants has this goal.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[dazzer1975]

When you consider the costs involved in purchasing our tanks, equipment, lifesock and plants, then spending $12 to gain some trustworthy advice and benefit from the knowledge and experience of others then essentially the subscription fee pays for itself.

It will pay for itself if the advice you receive prevents you from making one unneccessary or unsuitable purchase, or from making a mistake which could cost the life's of your plants thus preventing the need to purchase replacements etc.


It is also a nice touch and illustrates the attitude of the site and it's owner when he takes the time to answer so many questions we have.

Thanks Tom for creating a place like this and devising new methods and exploring the knowledge boundaries of our hobby and then for sharing this knowledge with us!

[Professor Myers]

I spend more than this on coffee in a week. Why should I mind paying for strong "Rational" data ? I liken the investment to the red or blue pill in The Matrix. Most journeys start with a conscious decision. The investment is trivial. Starting the journey is Crucial !

Hardly anyone ever aspires to mediocrity. Unfortunately that's often the casualty of apathy. The poke and prod method of research is novel. Even enlightening at times, but it gets real messy when dealing with living organisms. Expensive Too ! :eek:

Folks seldom commit to Free Advice, They're more likely to argue with you...Don't get me started ! :gw Prof M

[robin adair]

I see the Barrreport as damm good value and has incrementally improved plant growth skills and fostered good debate among the like minded here.
Keep it up Tom, you are good for the hobby and helping lots of people and I don't mind paying. Thanks.

[Tom Barr]

I have a new tank I created, 2000 gallons.
The client is a very advanced hobbyists and loves fish as well.

The tank should surpass the ADA's giant tank when it's grown in fully.
22 hours of planting non stop ...........I'm a dead dog :p
That did not include the hardscape.

250lb log, 180lb petrified wood(there are many other items, this was just some of the harder ones to place).

EI dosing, 4 x 1000 watt MH (and PC's), Pure O2 injection, dual system CO2(beetle 50's and 24"x 4: CO2 reactors) It has about most every bell and whistle.
1000gpd RO......700 gal Reservior.

Stock list and one very good reason why it will exceed ADA's tank:

36 dinner plate Discus champs(all) biggest fish I've seen.
46 Altums(I've never seen this many at once)
60......yes 60 Rose line barbs...........

I may do several more such Barr's Behemoth's soon.

Very fun, but a lot of work when the tank is 4ft deep
Lots of good folks did the tank and engineering.

Tenji from Monterey Bay did most of the tank equipment.
I did the Wood, rock, scaping, plants/planting, substrate, CO2, ferts.

Plants where pearling nicely 3 hours after set up.

Yes, there will be photo's and set up history etc etc.

I need some sleep now:)

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Paul]

never mind the sleep, where are the pics? :confused: :p

[dcheese44]

Hey everybody Hi Tom,
I have actually never posted anything in this forum (I think I'll start). I have seen and read this topic before and I think the answer will probably be the same as before. People that feel that they do not need to pay for information will continue to not pay for information, and people who want to pay some amount for information will pay the amount. Honestly what college or university did you go to? You made the decision then, right? So, if the real question is do I feel like my money is well spent, then the answer is assuredly, YES. I have learned a great deal about building, maintaining and enjoying a hobby from the barrreport as well as many other resources. I think the barr report presents ideas very well and has a great many contributors and is definitely worth my time and money.
Well, That's my two cents.
Cheese

[Tom Barr]

never mind the sleep, where are the pics? :confused: :p

See behemoth tank....... :gw

[travis]

Tom,

All I have to say is that you were the only person who found my tank "unremarkable." I've been keeping African cichlids in a planted tank for years now and you were the only person who said that it wasn't amazing - LOL.

I completely agree with you. It is NOT as hard as one may first imagine. Plants deal well with hard water, the fish are the tricky part :P

If there is any way I can help out just call on me :)

[Tom Barr]

Oh Travis, the idea is not amazing, the tank and your excution and passion to it is amazing.

Few would doubt that, I went after a more tangy approach to the biotope within reason, you just went all out for the plant tank and having the fish you love and they are great choices for the group.

Thing is, you took a risk and kept your passion and the the tank looks super.
That is remarkable.

I think the point I was making is not so much the tank was unremarkable, far far from it, much more that yes, you can keep Rift lake fish and plants together, not all species, but most of them depending on what you want to do as far as a scape.

I'd really like to see much more folks keeping different, non traditional fish in planted tanks.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[admin]

I'd really like to see much more folks keeping different, non traditional fish in planted tanks.

Ditto ... I think there are lots of things that are wonderful and viable tanks ... this was an outstanding example ...

Greg

[gupp]

I think people like to find fault with others because then they can compare themselves and think, well I'm better than that. It's in everything not only just if you have a subscription site. It's a person dresses, does their hair, what they think, in this day and age, what they do behind closed doors. A large portion of people believe they are qualified for determining the moral standing of others. It's disappointing, personally I don't think there is anyone that couldn't stand to make a few self improvements in one way or another but it's easier to pass judgment on others than look in the mirror.


Sadly anytime you do anything that might put something back in your pocket in the aquarium world there seems to be someone that thinks it's wrong, whether selling fish, plants or knowledge. On the other hand I wonder if some of these folks have any idea the cash involved in paying for domain names, hosting sites, site software and whatever other little incidentals come along. And the time, time to set up sites, time to update, time to answer the same questions you've answered 20 times before that a quick site search would reveal (OK sometimes I know I've done this to people too.) All those short little answers add up to a lot of time. Then there's the cost of the aquariums, plants, fish, equipment and then the time of actually taking care of those animals, and trying to keep up with everything in the field. If you can't get at least some of it back, or goodness forbid, actually make a small profit, then the average Joe couldn't possibly do it. You'd have to be independently wealthy and lot's of free time.

Anyway I've rambled on a bit but just wanted to say you have my support. I'm going to have to be signing up too. I really want to read that report on aquatic fungus. :)

[tefsom85]

I just saw this thread for the first time when it popped up under the "new" section. But I wanted to throw my 2 cents in, even if its worth less :cool: . I personally feel this is an awesome forum and I think it is inevitable that anyone with more than a passing interest in aquatic plants is going to end up here.

The subscription fee is minimal and I am more than willing to pay it. I have been a planted tank "hack" for many years. Definitely know some stuff but there's awhole lot more that I don't know. I spend a lot of time lurking here and the other forums to try to glean useful info. Always learning something which is the real gauge of the site's worth.

[Tom Barr]

Well, pop up ads, banners, coddling to various business sponsers and trying to get $ that way has not worked well for many sites over the years.

I wanted more control over the content and the fee gets rid of the trolls fast. I have not had to moderate anything here to date, we locked a few threads in the off topic chat, but that might be due to me as much as the topics:)
Still, hardly any moderation has ever been required here after a few years now.
I expect and give a large leeway, as long as folks stick to the topic and focus on that, there's not going to be any. I do not rule with an iron stick.

This forum is for the people and of the people and by the people.
It is not for the advertisers. It's for you.

Folks can sell a few bags of weeds on the net, like 1 or 2, and that covers the cost. Not hard to do.

It pays to have a green thumb, teach the aquarists to grow plants and they will be rich in plant dollars. Then the $ from that can pay for a few little extras here and there.

I think some had the knee jerk response when I started this as they just wanted me to keep doing things for free(Hah! They are not the boss of me!). Those magazines also cost money as well. How much content on aquatic plants is there? And no trees where killed in the writing of this monthly newsletter as well as no postage stamps licked to mail it and waste fuel and produce CO2 for delivery.

I also tried to add many references and really go in depth and bring something new to the discussion that has not been talked about in this hobby prior for each article. Not mere edited post.

Many magazine articles rehash the same old newbie topics over and over, that's good as that is what many readers are after in many cases. But what about those that already know they wanted plants and want to learn the horticulture behind it?


Regards,
Tom Barr

[gupp]

I also tried to add many references and really go in depth and bring something new to the discussion that has not been talked about in this hobby prior for each article. Not mere edited post.

Many magazine articles rehash the same old newbie topics over and over, that's good as that is what many readers are after in many cases. But what about those that already know they wanted plants and want to learn the horticulture behind it?


Yes it's nice to have different options for people depending on what their goals and interests are. Our own little niches. :) I'm really excited about reading the microbiology section and I noticed several Barr report articles that look interesting. I have some theories on the micro fauna populations in aquariums and how they affect the character of the tank. I'd love to have the knowledge and equipment to test them.

Now that I have all my kids in school I've been strongly thinking of taking some botany classes at ASU. I've looked at some of the articles and information on one of the professors there and would like to take some of her classes.

[Tom Barr]

Well,
Going and taking classes is a good idea then.
Kids are in school for a good reason, same with the parents.
There's quite a bit out there on microbiology of aquatic FW systems.
HydroSoils, plant periphyton, water column etc.
There are plenty of papers on various topics there.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[EMBX]

Hi Tom and all,

Just subscribed to the Barr Report, wait for confirmation info so I can login :-)
I am sure that every penny of the money spent is worth it.
Keep up the good work!

Evert

[Tom Barr]

Much like I suggest for folks in local plant clubs, sell two three batches of weeds on line etc, that pays for the cost.

No real $, just plant dolllars.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[ghostsword]

Hi Tom,

I just joined the site, and after a while reading some posts it made sense to invest on my education about aquatic plants.

I am member of a number of forums related to aquatic plants and their keep, and I have been keeping fish tanks since for over 20 years now. However keeping fish tanks, and taking care of plants, ensuring that they do not die after a couple of months is a separate thing.

This is where your site, and UKAPS, has helped me.

I am still learning, ensuring that what I read makes sense to me, as there is no point of following something that I do not understand, :) .

There may be a while before I post something on this forum, as I am trying to digest most of the information available here, but so far this is like having access to your own aquatic plants tutor, 24/7, an available encyclopaedia, but one that is organic and grows everyday.


the fee gets rid of the trolls fast
The fee, I believe, keeps the nonsense out.

Fifty odd quid for this sort of information store is nothing.. :)

[Tom Barr]

Hi Tom,

I just joined the site, and after a while reading some posts it made sense to invest on my education about aquatic plants.

I am member of a number of forums related to aquatic plants and their keep, and I have been keeping fish tanks since for over 20 years now. However keeping fish tanks, and taking care of plants, ensuring that they do not die after a couple of months is a separate thing.

This is where your site, and UKAPS, has helped me.

I am still learning, ensuring that what I read makes sense to me, as there is no point of following something that I do not understand, :) .

There may be a while before I post something on this forum, as I am trying to digest most of the information available here, but so far this is like having access to your own aquatic plants tutor, 24/7, an available encyclopaedia, but one that is organic and grows everyday.


The fee, I believe, keeps the nonsense out.

Fifty odd quid for this sort of information store is nothing.. :)

Well, this hobby has more than its share of the "Church of the Cheap", folks who feel they'd rather lose a kidney than pay for something they feel they do not have to.
That same attitude also started folks using and sharing info on the Web, and led to DIY fertilizers and cheaper solutions to light and CO2.

So that is well founded and truthfully, I give away far more than I charge. Folks will save a lot more than they spend on equipment, trying to solve problems etc.
Still, there's a mental mind set that keeps folks from subscribing.

Much like seeking mental treatment has a similar stigma.
Folks seem willing to pay a lot for some thing in the hobby, but not others.

Intel is always worth more than many seem willing to pay.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[ghostsword]

Folks will save a lot more than they spend on equipment, trying to solve problems etc.
Still, there's a mental mind set that keeps folks from subscribing.

It is a question of maths...

The cheaper plants cost around £3.50, with the most expensive going all the way to £7 and sometimes even more. By just using water, insufficient or too much light, and by starving the plants to death, in the space of year, I am sure that one spends more than the price of a lifetime subscription to this forum.

The substrate, water fertilizers, co2, test kits for almost everything under the sun, is able to eat into £100 in 6 months if one is not careful.

So +- £50 for something that can save me money, can allow me to have a true water garden, and while enjoying the hobby also learn, it is really a bargain.

Nothing on this world is free, we may just not see how it gets paid, that is all. :)